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#339875 - 05/06/07 04:27 AM Best Way?!?!?
Z498 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 11
I was wondering as a Black Belt I have many moves if I ever need to defend myself from someone at school or somewhere else. But I was wondering what would be the best technique to take someone down in a fight at school. Someone who dosen't know martial arts but just uses fists, I think a double jab then a backhand followed up with some fast roundhouse,push,and side kicks, but I just want to know some other peoples opinions.

Also what if the person is alot taller then you, what would be the best course of action.


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#339876 - 05/06/07 05:47 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

But I was wondering what would be the best technique to take someone down in a fight at school. Someone who dosen't know martial arts but just uses fists, I think a double jab then a backhand followed up with some fast roundhouse,push,and side kicks, but I just want to know some other peoples opinions.




Whatever suits the particular situation. There are general aspects of a fight that make some techniques, if not impossible to use, very risky indeed to use. Flying kicks and high kicks(although the high roundhouse is sometimes an exception) are the techniques that are really not a good idea to use.

As for techniques that do work, well that depends on what you're comfortable with. Personally I love using the jab, cross combination followed by a low roundhouse, or one to the groin or a front snap kick aiming for the same areas. I personally don't like the backfist much, but that is mainly a personal issue with it.

What I would suggest you don't do, is the double jab, backfist combination. The backfist doesn't have enough power in it, unless it is a spinning backfist, to actually do much damage. Ideally after doubling up your jab you want to throw something powerful- like an overhand right, a hook or a straight cross. The jabs remember are used to set up your opponent, so if you're doing them right you should be able to manoeuvre your opponent into getting hit by the big shot, even if the jabs do not hit. Of course, that's easier said than done!


Quote:

Also what if the person is alot taller then you, what would be the best course of action.




Same as you would with a smaller guy. The difference is that you want to get in close to a big guy, however don't just charge in, you have to look for your opponent to throw something first, or to lose their footing slightly or whatever, which can be facilitated by feinting, or the jab.

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#339877 - 05/09/07 05:08 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
Z498 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 11
Thanks alot dude I was thinking that! I was wondering though, when would be an excellent time to start kicking.

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#339878 - 05/10/07 12:40 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
when the oppurtunity arises. If you have stunned someone with a good punching combination, then a kick to the body, groin or knee can be very effective, particularly front kicks or roundhouse kicks. I wouldn't advise kicking to the head unless the opponent has fallen to the floor, in which case why are you hanging around- RUN!

Bottom line is, you will rarely have enough space in a real self defense situation to use kicks, because if you did, you should be escaping. There are a few circumstances where you can, and they are generally after creating a bit of space using punches.

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#339879 - 05/10/07 01:04 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Okay I will give you a counter attack that I gave the guy in the tournament forum. The first counter we learn in Olympic style TKD is a simple and probably the best counter.

If you find yourself in a school yard fight and you really just want to defend yourself and get away.

Wait for you opponents attack. Step back once then immediately counter with either a rear punch, or a rear leg roundhouse kick.

The key is to step back out of range as soon as you see the guy move his shoulders. Everyone must move their shoulders when attacking, punching or kicking. Once you see the shoulders move, step back, right before they finish their atack, you counter with an attack of your own, to catch them off balance and score.

Now I recommend a kick to the groin, stomach, liver. Basically a kick. because usually school yard bullies do not expect their opponents to know TKD. And if your a TKD stylist you know how hard a kick can be especially when your using shoes.

For a more elaborate description go to the tournament forum and check out my response.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#339880 - 05/11/07 08:17 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TeK9]
Z498 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 11
Quote:

Okay I will give you a counter attack that I gave the guy in the tournament forum. The first counter we learn in Olympic style TKD is a simple and probably the best counter.

If you find yourself in a school yard fight and you really just want to defend yourself and get away.

Wait for you opponents attack. Step back once then immediately counter with either a rear punch, or a rear leg roundhouse kick.

The key is to step back out of range as soon as you see the guy move his shoulders. Everyone must move their shoulders when attacking, punching or kicking. Once you see the shoulders move, step back, right before they finish their atack, you counter with an attack of your own, to catch them off balance and score.

Now I recommend a kick to the groin, stomach, liver. Basically a kick. because usually school yard bullies do not expect their opponents to know TKD. And if your a TKD stylist you know how hard a kick can be especially when your using shoes.

For a more elaborate description go to the tournament forum and check out my response.




======

Thanks! That helped a ton but I have another question lol, I was wondering exactly where is the liver and does it matter exactly what point you hit it in?

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#339881 - 05/12/07 06:47 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Lower right side of the stomach. It can be hit with a round kick to the side of the stomach or a straight back kick directly in front of the body. I practice with the back kick, there is a kick boxer by the name of Benny "the" Uriquez who is famous for his trade mark back kick to the liver. This guy fought in the 70's early 80's.

If you plan to use a roundhouse kick then you must make sure you kick beneath the floating ribs, and watch out for elbows.

Personally I aim with my back kick. Um, for those ITF stylist that would be the spinning back kick to you guys.

Lately I've been practicing liver shot with skip/hop kicks, such as a round kick or side kick, so far not much luck.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#339882 - 05/22/07 04:28 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
If you were a BB you would not be asking this types of question. After 4-5 years of training you would know....
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#339883 - 05/22/07 05:21 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: schanne]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Unfortunately Schanne that is not necessarily true. I'm guessing as this is on the TKD forum that we have to understand that many school don't get into depth of this and only touch on it, and then if you are not there for those days you really don't get it at all. And unless you are training it all of the time then forget about muscle memory or remembering how to do it. Most only require black belts to know their pattern, sparring and breaking technique plus some basics.

Quote:

But I was wondering what would be the best technique to take someone down in a fight at school.




I don't care if the person knows how to punch or not, the best technique to take somebody down in a fight it to get in close, clinch up with hands behind their head (don't interlock fingers), forearms tight to their neck (carota artery), pull their head to your chest and deliver knees while at the same time moving their body from side to side trying to unbalance them so you are able to trip or toss them to the ground; if you control the head you are controlling the body. Then you can take side mount and then top mount and deliver some elbows, forearms and fists (ground'n pound). Or just get up and get out of there or get ready to further fight.

After clinching up you can also pull them forward with a big unexpected jerk so that they have to sprawl and if they don't know how then they land on their face. In this position you can use repeated elbows to their shoulders, neck or back or you can use knees to their head or shoulders. You have options such as shoot off to the side, use a friction grip to pull their back to your stomach and you go to your back while at the same time using your legs to lock them in and then applying the RNR (Rear Naked Choke). Or after repeated knees to the head or shoulders, slip an arm under their neck under their opposite arm pit and lock this up and then roll yourself and them into an Anaconda Choke. Or just stand up and leave or if have to prepare to knock them down when they get up.

Can you finish this standing up, perhaps but there is no sure way to get them down, not like close up fighting. Now how you get to this position to clinch that is a whole other story. Be first what every you do. Use momentum and surprise and aggressiveness on your side. Don't be afraid to take one or more.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#339884 - 05/22/07 10:56 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Dereck your my hero. My entire fighting model is now based on getting in close and applying the MT clinch and ending it from there with knee's, elbows, and head butts.

However, once I off balance and take them down, I would not mount them, I'd stomp on them, mounting them is a little to much UFC for me, I still like to get ghetto on their a$$es. Hehe, but not ghetto enough to the point were I take their wallet...

Personally I am very afraid to choke someone out. Although I practice it and know how to apply all sorts of chokes, I am afraid to crush someones windpipe or hold on to long to the point of brain damage.

Geoff Thompson says you should never hold on more than 3 seconds after three seconds of unconsciousness you risk brain damage.

_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#339885 - 05/23/07 05:35 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Personally I am very afraid to choke someone out. Although I practice it and know how to apply all sorts of chokes, I am afraid to crush someones windpipe or hold on to long to the point of brain damage.

Geoff Thompson says you should never hold on more than 3 seconds after three seconds of unconsciousness you risk brain damage.





If it's self defense, who cares? I don't think any jury in any court will convict you for defending yourself with a choke and holding it a bit long. If it's training, then your partner should know when to tap, and you should know how to apply the choke, i.e. with slowly increasing pressure.

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#339886 - 05/23/07 11:30 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Supremor]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
These fight tactics are great for sport combat, but not self defense.

In self defense the last thing you want to do is get tangled up with someone, that just makes you vulnerable to a multitude of things.

Also, in self defense, you don't allow an opponent to square up and mount any defense, you use the element of surprise and dispatch them as quickly as you can and get free.

If you are squaring up with opponent, you are in a fight not really self defense, if you are taking on the school yard bully in a fight, that's not what I can self defense. (and yes a jury would convict you if you used a choke in a fight and did serious damage, the kids in school might think they "have" to fight but a jury would say he could walk away, or use reasonable force)

Just wanted to clarify.

Now to your question, if you are squaring off with a bully, and you are sure no one is going to join in while your taking him to the ground, then the clinch tactics are highly effective.

When fighting a non MA, one thing to keep in mind is most people don't have any idea how to deal with kicks, fists sure most normal boys can, but kicks will often throw off most non MA's even if just a second so you can follow up.

Also remember, non MA's are not going to follow any rules like students in a class, especially once the fear of loss sets in, they will go wild and they run right throw a light jab, so commit to your techniques, whatever they are, don't punch them in the face, cave their skull in (not literally I just mean hit them so hard they either drop, or lose all interest in fighting you).

My father taught me many years ago, the second most important thing about a fight is make sure no matter what, who ever fought you or watched you fight, will never ever want to fight you again. Period.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#339887 - 05/23/07 08:48 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TeK9]
Z498 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 11
THANKS ALOT everyone, except for someone who couldn't give constructive criticism (won't say any names they know who they are). Think a hook kick would be good to their head?

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#339888 - 05/23/07 10:30 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Kimo2007]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

When fighting a non MA, one thing to keep in mind is most people don't have any idea how to deal with kicks, fists sure most normal boys can, but kicks will often throw off most non MA's even if just a second so you can follow up.




I agree with this statement. I believe now because grappling is so popular that kicks are being under utilize, because they require that you off balance yourself to attack. Most wrestlers and grappler's prefer to keep their base rather than take a chance kicking. Which is why I feel that these men are not used to dealing with kicks either. Because they certainly do not use them often, and their training partners do not use them, so how will they know how to react to them. They will not be as prepared.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#339889 - 05/24/07 05:19 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
You may need to clarify exactly what you mean by a hook kick. If you mean the kick which comes out like a side kick then flicks at the knee, striking with the heel- then I find it a very weak kick, and not very useful in any kind of fighting situation outside of light contact sparring, indeed I probably wouldn't even score it if I were a judge.

If you mean the circular kick, where the toes are pointing upwards and the leg is swung in an arc-like motion, then I was always taught that the only effective use for the kick is as a block, although I have to say I doubt it's usefulness in that regard as well. In ITF TKD, the outward vertical kick is the offensive variation of the kick, but again I find it a somewhat weak kick.

My advice when it comes to kicking, would be to stick to the powerful "big" kicks:

-Roundhouse (turning kick)\
-side kick
-front kick
-back kick (and variations)
-perhaps even a reverse turning kick, also called a spinning wheel kick sometimes, or a spinning heel kick. This one, while being very powerful, is a risky one, unless you are very fast with it, and remember to pull back the toes so you hit with your heel!

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#339890 - 05/24/07 08:02 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
FWIW, I think most of the advice here is CR*P. I suggest you check out books by Peyton Quin, "Real Fighting" or "The bouncer's guide to barroom Brawling' You could also check out the article on my website "The 10 commandments of street survival" http://www.geocities.com/ustfregion5/commandments.html

2 biggest bad advice princiole espoused here.
1. Confusing sparring ideas with street defense.
2. Waitng for your opponent to attack first.

If you reread the stuff I addressesd above you will see that the defense starts long before your attacker (NOTE he is an attacker, not an opponent) initiates an attack.

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#339891 - 05/24/07 08:27 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

FWIW, I think most of the advice here is CR*P.




While I agree a lot of people who post here are either kids, or have never be inside a dojo, I think this statement is a bit harsh.

That said this hits the nail on the head in terms of the difference between self defense and combat sport.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#339892 - 05/24/07 10:43 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Perhaps a little harsh Earl. Sparring and street defense however I agree are two different animals but many cross overs. I believe that sparring especially clinching and grappling sparring are more realistic ways of training, but that is my own opinion. Waiting for your opponent to attack being wrong I have to agree and did above when I noted:

Quote:

Be first what every you do. Use momentum and surprise and aggressiveness on your side. Don't be afraid to take one or more.




There must be commitment and swift action. I also however also see in your statement where you say defense starts long before your attacker initiates an attack to not only attack first but also be aware of the situation and your surrounds and your other outs. I also like your 10 Commandments.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#339893 - 03/25/08 03:40 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
quote
Thanks alot dude I was thinking that! I was wondering though, when would be an excellent time to start kicking.

end quote


I believe this is not a question from a BB! this is a question from some young kid that is thinking about confronting his bully.

Then he go"s on about how do I take him to the ground, this tells us he probably has never even been in a fighting confrontation before so all this advice that he is getting is probably not going to help much. All the advice that was given could be good for a trained practitioner and even though we could debate what was good advice and what was not all of it could be applied by the right person, but I think this kid may be doomed if he tries most of it being that know one can even demonstraight it for him. Plus when the time comes he will probably be scared sh--less.


Edited by von1 (03/25/08 03:59 PM)

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#339894 - 03/25/08 04:02 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: von1]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Lorton, VA
Asking for advice on how to win a schoolyard fight is not allowed on FA.com.

Same goes for giving advice on schoolyard fights.

EDIT: I think Von1 hit the nail on the head.


Edited by Zombie Zero (03/25/08 04:04 PM)
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#339895 - 03/25/08 04:16 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Zombie Zero]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Seeing as you are a black belt i assume that your hypothetical situation is strictly self-defense. in that case, you should get the guy off you and get out, that is if it doesn't get broken up by a teacher first. by black belt you should know how to avoid school fights completely.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#339896 - 03/25/08 04:23 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Zombie Zero]
Novum Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 58
Loc: New England
Intimidate the guy or say whatever it takes to make him feel better about himself and not want to fight anymore. No one squares off with you unless its a mutually consensual fight.
_________________________
Therefore we are not justified in saying that all reality is in perfect agreement and harmony.

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#339897 - 03/25/08 04:27 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Novum]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

Intimidate the guy or say whatever it takes to make him feel better about himself and not want to fight anymore. No one squares off with you unless its a mutually consensual fight.




Intimidation does not win a fight. The true winner is the one who walks away.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#339898 - 03/25/08 04:51 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TKD_X]
Novum Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 58
Loc: New England
Maybe you misunderstand the intent then, the reason to intimidate would be to avoid the fight and walk away. Not everyone responds to logic and understanding in the face of adversity.
_________________________
Therefore we are not justified in saying that all reality is in perfect agreement and harmony.

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#339899 - 03/25/08 05:12 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Novum]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
so basically what you are saying is that by trying to scare the person who already thinks he/she has the abilities to beat you up, you will be able to end the situation without violence? if they have the intent to do physical harm upon you, a confrontational response will perhaps inflame the situation more than it already is. with all due respect, i have to ask you: do you know what intimidation means? it is a tactic that uses fear and/or threatening language/actions to achieve personal goals. intimidation may end the confrontation if you are the bully and the other person is the martial artist.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#339900 - 03/25/08 05:17 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TKD_X]
Novum Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 58
Loc: New England
If you can gauge the situation and the person (which I've found that most martial artists who spend any time living what they practice can) then you can determine which route to take. The frat guy who walks up to you and tries to punk you with his bravado is different than the guy who wants to hurt you. Sometimes all it takes is giving the attitude right back, sometimes it's obvious that the only way to diffuse the situation is to stroke the guy's ego and let it be done. Don't get hostile at me, I'm giving advice on how to avoid a fight, with all due respect =p.
_________________________
Therefore we are not justified in saying that all reality is in perfect agreement and harmony.

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#339901 - 03/25/08 05:26 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Novum]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Mostly for the OP, just partially for Novum----


Well I will say you can't fight fire with fire. If we're talking about your typical bully type he's probably already doing the intimidating or why would you be asking for help. As a very general rule, bullies pick targets they're pretty confident they can stomp fairly easlily. "Mad dogging" him is unlikely to make him leave you alone out of fear. It's just not that easy. Unfortunately the better way seems to take a while to learn correctly. You don't need to intimidate just show confidence. (real confidence not acting like it cuz that will get you hurt) Don't challenge him or stand in front of him and puff out your chest or drop into fighting stance and kiop. It's a matter of developing enough confidence in yourself that you don't need to prove to anyone (including yourself) that you aren't afraid of somthing/someone. If you have this you won't draw the attention of bullies usually. If he already has you in his sights? Stay out of his way as much as the situation commits and worry about the rest when you truly have no other choice but to fight him. Then all the rest is moot. You won't have time to think "ok now its time for my heel hook, jump spining 540 jedi sweep combo. You'll just do what you've trained.

Summation: Train hard, train often, train correctly, and build yourself into a better person. It always sounds like nonsense just like it did when "some old guy" said it to me when I was young. But, if you're prepared and well trained, you'll find that less bullies will target you. Not because they know you study TKD (if infact you do) , but because you carry yourself confidently and have presense. All animals can smell fear and doubt, why not bullies?


Edited by JMWcorwin (03/25/08 05:32 PM)
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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