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#339885 - 05/23/07 05:35 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK

Personally I am very afraid to choke someone out. Although I practice it and know how to apply all sorts of chokes, I am afraid to crush someones windpipe or hold on to long to the point of brain damage.

Geoff Thompson says you should never hold on more than 3 seconds after three seconds of unconsciousness you risk brain damage.

If it's self defense, who cares? I don't think any jury in any court will convict you for defending yourself with a choke and holding it a bit long. If it's training, then your partner should know when to tap, and you should know how to apply the choke, i.e. with slowly increasing pressure.

#339886 - 05/23/07 11:30 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Supremor]
Kimo2007 Offline

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
These fight tactics are great for sport combat, but not self defense.

In self defense the last thing you want to do is get tangled up with someone, that just makes you vulnerable to a multitude of things.

Also, in self defense, you don't allow an opponent to square up and mount any defense, you use the element of surprise and dispatch them as quickly as you can and get free.

If you are squaring up with opponent, you are in a fight not really self defense, if you are taking on the school yard bully in a fight, that's not what I can self defense. (and yes a jury would convict you if you used a choke in a fight and did serious damage, the kids in school might think they "have" to fight but a jury would say he could walk away, or use reasonable force)

Just wanted to clarify.

Now to your question, if you are squaring off with a bully, and you are sure no one is going to join in while your taking him to the ground, then the clinch tactics are highly effective.

When fighting a non MA, one thing to keep in mind is most people don't have any idea how to deal with kicks, fists sure most normal boys can, but kicks will often throw off most non MA's even if just a second so you can follow up.

Also remember, non MA's are not going to follow any rules like students in a class, especially once the fear of loss sets in, they will go wild and they run right throw a light jab, so commit to your techniques, whatever they are, don't punch them in the face, cave their skull in (not literally I just mean hit them so hard they either drop, or lose all interest in fighting you).

My father taught me many years ago, the second most important thing about a fight is make sure no matter what, who ever fought you or watched you fight, will never ever want to fight you again. Period.
Undefeated in all of Asia!

#339887 - 05/23/07 08:48 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TeK9]
Z498 Offline

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 11
THANKS ALOT everyone, except for someone who couldn't give constructive criticism (won't say any names they know who they are). Think a hook kick would be good to their head?

#339888 - 05/23/07 10:30 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Kimo2007]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA

When fighting a non MA, one thing to keep in mind is most people don't have any idea how to deal with kicks, fists sure most normal boys can, but kicks will often throw off most non MA's even if just a second so you can follow up.

I agree with this statement. I believe now because grappling is so popular that kicks are being under utilize, because they require that you off balance yourself to attack. Most wrestlers and grappler's prefer to keep their base rather than take a chance kicking. Which is why I feel that these men are not used to dealing with kicks either. Because they certainly do not use them often, and their training partners do not use them, so how will they know how to react to them. They will not be as prepared.
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da

#339889 - 05/24/07 05:19 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Z498]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
You may need to clarify exactly what you mean by a hook kick. If you mean the kick which comes out like a side kick then flicks at the knee, striking with the heel- then I find it a very weak kick, and not very useful in any kind of fighting situation outside of light contact sparring, indeed I probably wouldn't even score it if I were a judge.

If you mean the circular kick, where the toes are pointing upwards and the leg is swung in an arc-like motion, then I was always taught that the only effective use for the kick is as a block, although I have to say I doubt it's usefulness in that regard as well. In ITF TKD, the outward vertical kick is the offensive variation of the kick, but again I find it a somewhat weak kick.

My advice when it comes to kicking, would be to stick to the powerful "big" kicks:

-Roundhouse (turning kick)\
-side kick
-front kick
-back kick (and variations)
-perhaps even a reverse turning kick, also called a spinning wheel kick sometimes, or a spinning heel kick. This one, while being very powerful, is a risky one, unless you are very fast with it, and remember to pull back the toes so you hit with your heel!

#339890 - 05/24/07 08:02 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
FWIW, I think most of the advice here is CR*P. I suggest you check out books by Peyton Quin, "Real Fighting" or "The bouncer's guide to barroom Brawling' You could also check out the article on my website "The 10 commandments of street survival"

2 biggest bad advice princiole espoused here.
1. Confusing sparring ideas with street defense.
2. Waitng for your opponent to attack first.

If you reread the stuff I addressesd above you will see that the defense starts long before your attacker (NOTE he is an attacker, not an opponent) initiates an attack.

#339891 - 05/24/07 08:27 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Kimo2007 Offline

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057

FWIW, I think most of the advice here is CR*P.

While I agree a lot of people who post here are either kids, or have never be inside a dojo, I think this statement is a bit harsh.

That said this hits the nail on the head in terms of the difference between self defense and combat sport.
Undefeated in all of Asia!

#339892 - 05/24/07 10:43 AM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10416
Loc: Great White North
Perhaps a little harsh Earl. Sparring and street defense however I agree are two different animals but many cross overs. I believe that sparring especially clinching and grappling sparring are more realistic ways of training, but that is my own opinion. Waiting for your opponent to attack being wrong I have to agree and did above when I noted:


Be first what every you do. Use momentum and surprise and aggressiveness on your side. Don't be afraid to take one or more.

There must be commitment and swift action. I also however also see in your statement where you say defense starts long before your attacker initiates an attack to not only attack first but also be aware of the situation and your surrounds and your other outs. I also like your 10 Commandments.

#339893 - 03/25/08 03:40 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Thanks alot dude I was thinking that! I was wondering though, when would be an excellent time to start kicking.

end quote

I believe this is not a question from a BB! this is a question from some young kid that is thinking about confronting his bully.

Then he go"s on about how do I take him to the ground, this tells us he probably has never even been in a fighting confrontation before so all this advice that he is getting is probably not going to help much. All the advice that was given could be good for a trained practitioner and even though we could debate what was good advice and what was not all of it could be applied by the right person, but I think this kid may be doomed if he tries most of it being that know one can even demonstraight it for him. Plus when the time comes he will probably be scared sh--less.

Edited by von1 (03/25/08 03:59 PM)

#339894 - 03/25/08 04:02 PM Re: Best Way?!?!? [Re: von1]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1993
Loc: Lorton, VA
Asking for advice on how to win a schoolyard fight is not allowed on

Same goes for giving advice on schoolyard fights.

EDIT: I think Von1 hit the nail on the head.

Edited by Zombie Zero (03/25/08 04:04 PM)
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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