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#338758 - 04/30/07 02:44 PM applying a rear naked choke
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
hello all

this is a very satisfying move to pull off on anyone really. a favorite of mine for sure. then the other night in class im rolling with a friend and as i take his back i go for the choke but he tucks his chin, like always. so i take my other hand up to his forehead, and place my forearm across his forehead and pull it back to expose his neck to slip my arm in for the win. and i get stoped by an assistant instrctor saying that im not allowed to pull back on the head, its dangerous he tells me. our regular instructor was out that night, but it really struck me funny that something like that would be considered to dangerous? is that for real? and if it is are there any other restrictions that you might feel important to impart on me before i make an ass out of myself again.

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#338759 - 04/30/07 02:50 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: student_of_life]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
That is a perfectly legal move in my BJJ class. Not sure about Judo or JJJ, though.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#338760 - 04/30/07 02:52 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: student_of_life]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Judo rules and etiquette. No pressure to the neck or spine.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#338761 - 04/30/07 04:42 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Fletch1]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
booo

ok then, any tips on how to get around that dastardly chin tucking turtle contraption??

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#338762 - 04/30/07 06:29 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Fletch1]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
In addition to what Fletch has said, in a Judo competition you are not allowed to touch the face.

You already have his back. Feint attacking the arm or shoulder. When defending he will lift his head up. Slide on the choke!

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#338763 - 04/30/07 06:53 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: BuDoc]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Sort-of in line with what BuDoc said, you could also fake the choke and set up the armlock (juji gatami). Thats a great move to use against someone really defending the choke well who may not be expecting the armbar.


-John

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#338764 - 04/30/07 07:59 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: JKogas]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
thanks guys. since every one is so goving, can i have 20 bucks? im from canada so the exchange will be sweet, lol. thanks again guys, i'll have to mix that stuff in tomorrow night.

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#338765 - 05/01/07 12:34 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: student_of_life]
Leonine Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 191
Take the ridge part of your hand and cross-face across his nose, it'll lift up his head after a couple tries. Of course, some people frown on it cuz it's just not nice to do, but the way I see it, you're already trying to choke him, who cares about a little grinding on the face.

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#338766 - 05/01/07 08:09 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: student_of_life]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Let go off the arm going for the choke and punch in the back of the head. . .

Wait...

This is judo, not vale tudo. Oh well.

Go for another lock like juji-gatame.

In judo; no touching the face, or applying pressure to neck/spine.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338767 - 05/01/07 02:04 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
Leonine Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 191
Oh I see, good to know.

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#338768 - 05/02/07 01:41 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: student_of_life]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Unable to touch the face in Judo, that is a new one for me so good to know. I've rolled with some Judo guys and it was never brought up but perhaps as they came to BJJ roll they just accepted it.

In these cases then it will have to being a lot of swimming one arm in and then the other arm trying to get one under. Or perhaps try to just get a part of your hand/wrist under and roll the wrist so that the bony part annoys them enough to want to shift. Can you do neck cracks in Judo? If you can then apply it and just make it as uncomfortable as possible by cranking their neck and when they try to fight it off by moving their head then you can slide in for the choke. Another one used is when their chin is down is to put your arm over their nose/mouth making it difficult for them to breath, which can be made more pleasurable by squeezing. When they move around and panic to get some air then you may be given an opportunity to slide the RNC in and finish it there. Plus being limited to oxygen already, their tap will usually come sooner.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#338769 - 05/02/07 06:51 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: student_of_life]
clmibb Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
Loc: South Texas, US
I have nothing really to add to this post other than this has to be my favorite name for a technique.

Casey
_________________________
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."- Ronald Reagan


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#338770 - 05/02/07 09:04 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: clmibb]
leviethain Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 26
apply it over there chin, the pressure will be crushing there jaw and they should tap regardless

i occasionally get people like this in bjj, i don't know if judo has any rules against that sort of thing though

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#338771 - 05/02/07 09:53 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: leviethain]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Even in BJJ, crushing the jaw is generally considered poor manners.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#338772 - 05/03/07 04:32 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: leviethain]
Leonine Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 191
I find when people try and crush my jaw, there is just that little bit of room to start working. Besides, you won't be napping from a jaw crush so you may as well try anyway (says the guy who always has one or two bumps or stiffened joints from this sorta thing).

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#338773 - 05/06/07 02:11 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Leonine]
diddy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 9
I always try to sneak the forearm across the forehead... seem to get away with it if i do it backhanded for some reason, emphasising the fact that i'm not using my hand! You can do this above the hairline legally in judo (then it's not part of the face), but if you have someone's back and their face down it's a hard one to see anyway. Just doesn't work on someone who's receding, unless they've gone the comb-over!!!

Another way is by using the elbow to move the head on the opposite side (ie reaching accross with your right elbow on to the left side of their head and moving it over, giving you room to slip the left hand in... or vice versa). Don't elbow them in the head though, apply pressure. You don't have to hit them, just the discomfort makes you want to move!
_________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcdojo

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#338774 - 05/06/07 07:53 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: diddy]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

I always try to sneak the forearm across the forehead... seem to get away with it if i do it backhanded for some reason, emphasising the fact that i'm not using my hand! You can do this above the hairline legally in judo (then it's not part of the face), but if you have someone's back and their face down it's a hard one to see anyway.


You get penalized for that if you try it. Read what I said earlier "NO HEAD/SPINE pressuring whatsoever in Judo", pushing back on their forehead is considered as pressuring the spine area which is not allowed in Judo. That's why a lot of people opt to go with gi chokes because fabric slips under the chin easier than a hand.

Quote:

Another way is by using the elbow to move the head on the opposite side (ie reaching accross with your right elbow on to the left side of their head and moving it over, giving you room to slip the left hand in... or vice versa). Don't elbow them in the head though, apply pressure.


Not sure what you are trying to say here.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338775 - 05/06/07 07:56 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Dereck]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
And no, neck cranks aren't allowed.

Sucks, doesn't it?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338776 - 05/06/07 10:53 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Guys,
when all else fails... read the rules themselves. As I was reading through this thread, it perked my interest about how the rules had changed over the years. The original rules of judo allowed any jujutsu technique to be used, but as they have been refined, the rules have changed to disallow many good techniques that simply had high injury rates.

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but here are a couple of links to the original rules, the current rules, and the rules changes as they have transpired over the years. Hope it helps anyone that's really interested in figuring out technique.

Just because something has been "outlawed" by the rules doesn't mean that it isn't a good self defense technique, so you want to "keep it in your bag". Fortunately, when I started Judo, it was taught as much as a self defense art as a sport, so I have a high regard for "self defense judo".

Enjoy...
http://www.ijf.org/corner/qCornerList.php?MenuCode=RJ
http://www.judoinfo.com/rules.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/rules2.htm


_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#338777 - 05/07/07 12:31 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: wristtwister]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
WT,

To be honest, I have this very deep feeling inside of me that the Olympic commitee will do almost anything to make ground-work not work in Judo. I mean going for the choke is so damn risky because you can lose points for applying just the slightest pressure on the neck/spine. So the only viable and safe targets are the arms. So much for grappling.

What happened to the days when it was still pretty much similar to jujutsu grappling?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338778 - 05/07/07 12:10 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
When it's more advantageous to know how to grapple "near the out of bounds lines" than to actually know how to grapple properly, there's a problem. The last few seminars I attended with Olympic coaches all they could talk about was "making sure you had the boundary line nearby so you could get a restart".

Somehow, that kind of took all the "grappling" out of it for me. Turning the guy over and getting superior position was how I learned, or by escaping his hold-downs... not by hanging a leg over the out of bounds lines. To me, that's pretty chicken **** grappling.

At least the MMA guys go to the center and start from the position they had at the out of bounds... gotta give them that one. I'm a "stand up" judo player, and I'd rather throw than eat, but I've done my time on the floor, and I'd still rather see judo rules keep things level rather than giving the advantage to the cowardly players or those with limited skills.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#338779 - 05/08/07 12:17 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: wristtwister]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I've got to agree with that out-of-bound line. I mean, seriously, I'm going for the choke, he puts his leg across the line, and the ref breaks us up. That usually gets me pi$$ed to be honest. Not only was it a tremendous effort getting him to the ground, then I had to spend effort getting behind him for the hadaka-jime, and he escapes just by putting his leg across the line.

I don't know man, they seriously need to change the rules. The only place I see where you can apply judo principles properly these days are in the octagon.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338780 - 05/09/07 07:08 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
Leonine Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 191
To be honest (and possibly skirting another thread) it are rules like this that I think are the primary reason for Judo's lack of domination on the ground. I feel honestly (possibly because 90% of my groundwork is Judo based) that if you gave a Judo and BJJ guy the same amount of grappling training and had them focus on the intricacies of their ground game, that the Judo guy would at least equal the BJJ guy. I also think he'd win, but that's just conjecture.
BRING BACK GRAPPLING IN JUDO!!!

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#338781 - 05/09/07 08:02 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Leonine]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Thanks god that in my old dojo, we didn't do by the olympic rules in training. If you went to the ground and it wasn't ippon, you could continue grappling until one won.

Too bad most dojos don't do that these days. I can say, from the bottom of my heart, I am one lucky SOB thanks to my sensei.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338782 - 05/10/07 06:53 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Rules are rules, and I've never liked anything that allowed someone to simply flop their leg over a line or rope and undo 5 minutes of hard work getting them into position for a choke or hold-down. I do agree with the "restart at the center with the same position", and is what they should be using in competition.

As an old self-defense judo guy, I'm holding on until somebody "unwraps" me from whoever I'm grappling with... but sadly, that's not much anymore. Bad hips and knees, along with bad rotator cuffs make grappling almost impossible anymore, so I might have to submit much sooner than I ever would before... but getting me there still isn't a picnic... Even an old dog still has a few teeth...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#338783 - 05/12/07 10:16 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: wristtwister]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
im sure you could still put us young "wipper snappers" in our place any day of the week. my judo instructor is 49 i think, and he's made of steel, im convinced. while he may not be able to grapple for 20 minutes straight, he does not need the 20 minutes.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#338784 - 05/26/07 01:07 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: student_of_life]
Tower_Bloodthorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 67
You can always compete in freestyle Sambo. It's basically Judo with fewer rules. You get more time on the ground, plus you're able to do more (not too many restrictions on locks and chokes).

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#338785 - 06/01/07 02:05 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Take your forearm, put it flat against the shoulder blade and push, it will automatically force their neck to straighten just a bit, enough to slip your arm in and it doesn't put pressure on the spine to violate any rules.

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#338786 - 07/20/07 02:43 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Glockmeister]
badeofblade Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 46
I find Sambo to be somewhere between Jude and BJJ, and as such, love it =D but that's just an outsider's opinion.

As such, I don't ofter use the rear naked choke anymore... Unfortunate "accident" in my last real fight with a rear naked choke almost got me arrested. (He was thrashing around standing with me on his back ((i slipped past a hook)) and crushed his throat trying to flip me over him.) Not fun.
_________________________
Scientific Street Fighter|Weapon of Choice = Combat Boots|Tool of Choice = Elbows

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#338787 - 07/20/07 07:25 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: badeofblade]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Some fallacies I found from Tower_Bloodthorn;

Sambo doesn't allow chokes. Basically, no head manipulation at all. That's not Judo with fewer rule, it's a different beast all together. You can imagine how limiting it is if you can only go for the arm and legs.

I'd go for ANYTHING I'm able to grab. If I got head, I'd go for neck/choke. If I got arm, I go for arm. If I got leg, I go for the leg. Why should I go for the leg when I got his neck? See what I'm saying?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338788 - 07/21/07 11:25 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
badeofblade Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 46
Taison, there's Sport Sambo, and _then_ there's the good stuff.
_________________________
Scientific Street Fighter|Weapon of Choice = Combat Boots|Tool of Choice = Elbows

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#338789 - 07/22/07 11:40 AM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: badeofblade]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
But most of the time it's Sport Sambo and_then_there's the good stuff.

If you were to compare Sport Sambo competitions to combat sambo, combat sambo isn't as big as the sport variation.

It's more likely you'll be skilled doing Sport Sambo first, where you get to put the things you know in a safe environment.

For example, in my judo classes, we weren't allowed to do Combat Judo i.e. leg locks, neck/spine manipulations until much much later. I don't expect any place that teaches combat judo to allow "freestyle"/"NHB"/"all-out" until much much later.
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#338790 - 07/25/07 12:53 PM Re: applying a rear naked choke [Re: Taison]
badeofblade Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 46
Good point.
_________________________
Scientific Street Fighter|Weapon of Choice = Combat Boots|Tool of Choice = Elbows

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