FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 33 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
charlie 2
William_Bent 1
simonajones111 1
Zombie Zero 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#338627 - 04/30/07 01:14 AM Martial Arts College Degree
JM2007 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 37
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Hi, first, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Jason McLendon, and I have been practicing martial arts for about 27 years. I grew up as a military dependent living all over the world and had the opportunity to train in several arts in several locations. I train because I love it and I consider myself to be a beginner.

This is my first post here. I have been a silent lurker for a little while, but I am working on a project that I feel it is important to share. By the way, this will be a non-profit project, so I am not trying to make money off this. Please understand that I am also posting this on a couple of other forums I have read frequently (so you may see it more than once), but I am doing this in order to get as much feedback as possible. Also, I think it is important to know that I have no problem posting the project information here, however, the website is 6 pages long and I think it is simply too much information to post here.

I am attempting to generate thoughtful discussion about the possibility of a true academic martial arts degree program, with both a distance education and residential platform. I am not talking about some fly-by-night fake accredited school, but rather a real program similar in nature to other academic programs and focusing on martial arts. The programs of instruction will include a variety of subjects including history of martial arts, survey of martial arts practiced today, philosophy, and business management, to name a few. A complete list of the proposed courses is listed on the website. The program will be available for US and international students.

Please feel free to visit the website and read more about it. I welcome the insight and opinions of other martial arts professionals and students alike, as well as non-practitioners. However, I would ask that you keep opinions and suggestions professional, and also that you actually read the website material presented before judging. I know there are many people that are strongly against this type of program, and I believe it is important to discuss negative and positive aspects of what I am proposing. I am planning on initially funding this myself, and I certainly donít want to waste my money or time (or anyone elseís) on a project that wonít hold any actual interest.

The website has tabs across the top of the page and a discussion area/vote area under the title of the page. Because I am attempting to publicize this in several places, I will try to read and answer posts in reply to this one, however, I canít guarantee that I will respond immediately. If you happen to provide information in our site discussion area, please link back to this forum to provide further insight to discussions, questions, answers, or other important related information.

The website is http://www.amaconline.net , and I am calling it the American Martial Arts College.

I look forward to hearing from you, both pro and con. Thank you for your time.

Respectfully, Jason McLendon


Edited by JM2007 (04/30/07 01:31 AM)

Top
#338628 - 04/30/07 03:22 PM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: JM2007]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
interesting concept, but what would it lead to? Like it or not most students go to college because they want to make money. How would a degree in martial arts help you get a job? A 4 year degree won't qualify you to open your own dojo, and won't even give you a leg up in whatever system you decide to join with the eventual goal of being an instructor. Then there's the small bit that karate teachers don't generally get exactly rich unless they run a bunch of large McDojos.

The only thing I can see it qualifying you for really is teaching at a university that grants the martial arts degree, which gets rather circular
_________________________
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

Top
#338629 - 04/30/07 04:56 PM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: shadowkahn]
JM2007 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 37
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Hi Shadowkahn,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, you are correct about a 4 year degree not qualifying you (by itself) to open a dojo, however, I believe it does add at least some value to someone opening a dojo. You are also correct in that this would be mostly for those who are interested in one day instructing and/or owning a dojo.

I would like to add, however, that I feel this degree could also be used by many other people from other career fields as well. Not specifically the martial arts degree, but just the accredited degree itself (if we can get the accreditation). For instance, when I was a military officer, I know that many of my peers had degrees in subjects having nothing to do with their jobs, and many of them only got that particular degree because it was easy or convenient, never having a desire to pursue that particular field. I have spoken to many people recently who got degrees with the same mentality. If there are martial artists that need a degree in something (anything), why not pursue one in a subject they really enjoy, even if they don't plan to instruct later?

Often, employers require simply an accredited degree; the major does not matter. This program would provide that.

Graduates could use the degree to pursue not only government jobs (including military), but also law enforcement, security management, and public safety in addition to martial arts instructor positions.

As a side note, I also feel that a degree such as this should NOT BE REQUIRED to run a dojo or instruct at one.

Please keep your opinions coming. Thank you, and stay safe, Jason

Top
#338630 - 04/30/07 08:09 PM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: JM2007]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

I am not talking about some fly-by-night fake accredited school, but rather a real program similar in nature to other academic programs and focusing on martial arts.


You aren't accredited at all, therefore you can't even be fake. Nothing guarentees you aren't fly-by-night other than your word. Nothing guarentees you will have qualified instructors. Nothing guarentees you aren't a more elaborate certificate mill posing under collegiate terms.

$7800 for a Bachelor of Arts in Martial Arts....for how much mat time, hands on learning?

$7800 @ $80/month will give a student 8 years of instruction. so you are cramming 8 years of on-mat instruction into how many years of classroom theory?

after you are accredited, it'll be $21,000! lol

rediculous.

Top
#338631 - 04/30/07 08:33 PM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: Ed_Morris]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
Quote:


after you are accredited, it'll be $21,000! lol

rediculous.




Beyond the money, I don't like the distance-learning idea. That works fine for reading Shakespeare or studying politics, but how can you reliably teach a concept like fighting via a web cam? You might be able to use it to supplement actual mat time, but not to replace it.

And if I were a hiring manager, I would care that you know something about my business if you're trying to get a good job with me. If you just want to be a file clerk or a receptionist, that's one thing, but then you can get a 2 year degree at a typing school and get a job like that.

If you want to be hired by an investment firm, showing them a major in martial arts isn't going to get you in the door. If you want to be hired into a GOOD position in a company it is generally helpful to be able to demonstrate that you have some skill or knowledge that will apply to your job. Knowing how to fight (or at least thinking you do) and knowing the history of the bo staff isn't going to impress anyone outside of the martial arts world.
Of course you can get a job with a BA in martial arts, but it won't be a good one. And you can get a job with only a GED if you have to - and it'll probably be just about as good as the one the guy with the BA/MA gets.
_________________________
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

Top
#338632 - 04/30/07 08:46 PM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Back in the 1980's, there was a college in Virginia that offered a course in martial arts and a "martial arts degree" through the physical education department. There were a number of what I class as "promoters" involved, and some legitimate martial artists. The problem then, as now, is that the return on investment was very negligeble, and simply having a degree in martial arts didn't provide anything except something else to hang on the wall... along with your "soke" pictures and real-time training certifications... from non-accredited martial arts schools.

Unfortunately, 4 years isn't long enough to gain the knowledge to teach martial arts adequately to "press forward" with your skills and independently survive as a martial arts school. Unless you're picked up by a McDojo chain, there simply isn't enough knowledge to hold it all together. If you started today and trained for 4 years under any real "master", you might make shodan in 4 years, and you certainly won't set the world on fire with that.

The dojo where I train has about 650 students... all but about 100 are under 16 years of age, and 85 to 90 percent of that 100 are below shodan. The few that are "higher ranked" are still pretty pitiful when it comes to actually understanding martial sciences and fighting tactics. They have some level of technique, but not nearly what would come out of a TMA school if they stayed there the same amount of time they've trained there. The reason is simple, they are doing it for exercise and not so much for knowledge, which is why they disappear after about two to three years. They run the "kickboxing" to aerobics to BJJ to being gone scenario, and of the teachers I've seen there over the past 17 or 18 years, only the dojo owner's sons are still there. The others run between a 3 to 5 years "lifespan" as students to teachers to gone.

At about $100 a month, they'll have $3600 in training to reach shodan, and about $4800 until they start teaching. Since our side does TMA, we don't get involved in their dojo operations, but if they pay the teachers at all, they'll spend it back for more training. Finally, it all wears out, and they leave... seen it dozens of times.

Now, if the actual college course in martial arts didn't work before, when it was done by "name" martial artists, I don't see it working unless it's attached to another degree as a minor. Martial arts is a broad subject, and it takes years to develop many of the basic skills in some arts, so a 4 year program that "does it all" isn't practical or one where you'll gain the kind of knowledge you need to be considered legitimate.

JMHO

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#338633 - 05/01/07 01:32 AM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: wristtwister]
JM2007 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 37
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Hi everyone...

Thank you for the feedback. This is the type of information I am seeking. Not to be argumentative, however, since this is something that I personally do believe in, I will address a couple of points brought up in order to further the discussion.

First, I appreciate you taking the time to read the website and not just jump to conclusions. As you can see, and mentioned regarding accreditation, we are not accredited. The program does not even exist at this point. However, the idea is to seek authentic academic accreditation from legitimate agencies in the future, as well as buy in from some of the larger known and respected martial arts organizations. I have been planting seeds with this already and have received both positive and negative feedback. At this point, I will not drop names until I have something in writing from the people and organizations I have spoken to. That is, obviously, to cover myself and them in case minds are changed. This is only responsible as I am merely seeking feedback at this point, not sponsorship. Regarding accreditation, remember, I am speaking of academic accreditation, which would be completely different than simply rank certification. By the way, no where was rank certification mentioned on the website...this program has nothing to do with rank certification as the student must be training with a legitimate organization and ranked by them. Not this program. Who will determine which organizations are legitimate? Well, the board of directors, of course.

Regarding fees, if a program such as this were to fly, those costs are comparable to other academic programs. One of the biggest costs is accreditation itself. So, once again, absolutely NO (direct) mat time...all academic courses. However, the student will be expected to obtain the rank of Shodan in his or her style, concurrently or previously for a BA. I am not exactly sure how this would work...this is only a thought process at this time.

Next, distance learning. I completely agree regarding learning how to fight via distance. I don't believe in it and don't support it. That's why the student MUST be training with a legitimate recognized organization.

Not able to get a good job with a BA in Martial Arts? Did you guys read the links provided for the US accredited universities already offering a BA in Martial Arts Studies, such as the University of Bridgeport and Concordia University? What about the link describing accredited programs such as retail floristry and sports turf management? Is there really such a need for that?

When you think about it, the martial arts world, even in the US alone, is a pretty big world. I think the program could offer a lot in relation to having a basic understanding of various martial arts (academic), as well as historical aspects of how they developed, and concepts such as martial arts business management.

As you can see from the webpage, I have done a lot of research on the prospect (look under the "Why" tab), but I am not familiar with the university in Virginia you mentioned. If possible, could you provide me more information on that, at least the name of the school? I will take it from there. Once again, I am seeking the good, the bad, and the ugly, so ALL information helps.

Regarding being qualified to run a dojo after this 4 year program....that is not the intent at all. The intent is merely to supplement the training they are already doing, which, should they choose to teach with later, would be the organization who would probably sanction their teaching license...not the martial arts degree or college. As any professional can tell you, receiving a BA is only a beginning or a supplement to their hands on training....this program is no different.

Let me ask this rhetorical question...how many martial arts instructors are there in the United States? How many of those do you think could accurately tell you the history of their own art (let's say, from the 1800's on)? How many could intelligently discuss the personalities involved in the spread of (for example karate) from Okinawa to Japan to the rest of the world? How about the difference between major styles of karate and how they separated from their parent systems? How was Shotokan developed? What role did Shotokan have in the development of Tae Kwon Do as practiced today? How to karate, judo, aikido, and jujutsu inter-relate? Most traditional karate instructors cannot answer these questions. I am not saying they necessarily should be able to, however, the study of things such as this is part of what makes it a "do" vs. a "jutsu." It would be an academic pursuit only, but (I believe) an interesting one. Some martial artists really enjoy studying things such as this...why not allow them to pursue it academically, if possible?

The last item I will address. I realize I am a "no-name" martial artist. I am okay with that. I am not a master, or a soke, or the founder of some new art. I am not a member of the Black Belt Hall of Fame, and, although I was nominated for induction (which I turned down) I am not a member of the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame, either. I don't have a certificate from the World Sokeship Head of Families Council. I do, however, believe in this project, and I want to responsibly gather as much information as possible before starting something such as this. As a side note, I am not attempting to do this by myself. My plan is to have several "name" martial artists involved, one of whom has already expressed possible interested in doing so. This program is not about "me"...I'm just attempting to do it because no one else is. And I believe it could be valid with the right people involved.

I look forward to more dialogue, respectfully, Jason

Top
#338634 - 05/01/07 07:57 AM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: JM2007]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

Top
#338635 - 05/01/07 11:13 AM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: Ed_Morris]
JM2007 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 37
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Mr. Morris,

Wow, you put a lot of work into that reply. A lot of links and everything. As I stated on the first page of the website I provided, The ONLY accreditation I plan to seek is that which will be recognized by the US Department of Education. That includes: The Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) at http://www.chea.org, The Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools (ACICS) at http://www.acics.org, The Distance Education Training Council (DETC) at http://www.detc.org, and possibly The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS) at http://www.sacs.org (but the requirements for this one are the hardest and may not be possible to obtain). Accreditation for all of these are considered "legitimate" and degrees accredited by them can be used for things such as receiving a commission in the US armed forces.

Mr. Morris, it sounds as if your biggest area of contention is the whole accreditation area, and I completely agree with you. I have written letters to the agencies listed above to ask if they would even entertain the idea assuming all other requirements were met. I have not yet received any replies. However, as I stated in the very first post, I am interested in ONLY legitimate accreditation, not like the McDojo and McCollege sources you listed (which I didn't visit all of the links, but I am familiar with the type). Other than AIKIA, which I personally consider to be legitimate...that's Bill Wallace, Jerry Beasley, Renzo Gracie, and some other big names. Of course, they are merely a summer camp, not an academic college. If I am given negative replies by all of the agencies listed above, I'm not going to waste my money or time.

I hope I have answered your question(s) about serious accreditation, but that really isn't the purpose of my original question. That being said, and assuming this program could actually get accredited as I state above, then what are your thoughts about the validity of the program? Keep in mind, this is academic only (mat time expected at the student's own dojo) and as a supplement to their martial arts training with their training organization providing their ranking and instructor certifications, should they choose to go that route.

So, I am beginning to see a pattern here, negative responses mainly from the accreditation and quality of instructors standpoint, as well as from taking away the certification process from parent organizations. I think I have answered those questions.

As a side note, there are more legitimate Shotokan Karate and Tae Kwon Do dojos than anything else in the United States. It only makes sense there would also be more McDojos and charlatans from the same. So, I agree with you on that point as well.

Please keep your opinions coming.

Respecftully, Jason

Top
#338636 - 05/01/07 11:35 AM Re: Martial Arts College Degree [Re: JM2007]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jason -

I am not sure if I understand how academic learning will really help with the quality of someone's martial arts. They may be well informed historically, and know some useful physics, but if they are not getting adequate "mat time" (which your program does not seem to address), how can you be sure of their ability to apply their training?

Not to be pedantic or minimize academic pursuit (that's why I'm here on the forum), but MA is a physical endeavor at it's core. How do you seek to maintain focus (quality) in that regard?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki, tkd_high_green 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga