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#338089 - 04/25/07 04:27 AM The relevance of the power side forward theory
Sensei_Kreese Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 20
Loc: California
What is everyone's take on this? I see JKD practitioners that use it, and a LOT that don't. Without bashing anyone, I have seen people who fight in the UFC who claim some sort of background or affiliation to JKD-related schools, who, when they fight, appear as though they either A. Have never learned it or trained it properly, or B. Just don't think much of it. Thoughts?

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#338090 - 04/25/07 08:28 AM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: Sensei_Kreese]
MattJ Offline
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Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
IMHO, while power side forward is good for speed, a lot of people feel the extra torque and distance derived from power side back is more practical. Personally, I train to use both leads fairly equally. But that's another thread.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#338091 - 04/25/07 10:47 AM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: MattJ]
SifuLMDII Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama USA
The power side forward is a key component to practicing Jeet Kune Do as developed, practiced and taught by Bruce Lee. It is mainly the JKD concept practitioners who train with the power side back, as they have taken more of a "whatever" type attitude. Most people, until they experience Jeet Kune Do (or rather REAL Jeet Kune Do), are used to standing more like a boxer, with the power side back. Many instructors seek the easy way out when teaching, therefore just allowing the students to stay in the weak side forward position as if it is no big deal! Well, IT IS a big deal! I would go so far as to say that it is so important that if you don't assume the bai jong with your power side forward at least 90% of the time, you aren't really doing Jeet Kune Do! Jeet Kune Do is designed for self defense, not for sport, therefore it is important to follow ALL of the principles set forth by the founder, not just pick and choose those that you want to! Remember, the lazy or easy way out never accomplished much of anything! Learn right, train right, fight right!
_________________________
Keep Blasting! Sifu Lamar M. Davis II HARDCORE JEET KUNE DO http://www.HardcoreJKD.com

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#338092 - 04/25/07 10:58 AM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: SifuLMDII]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hi Lamar. Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory to the JKD ethos to adhere rigidly to the power side forward theory? Certainly boxers and MMA folk can make power side rear work. Perhaps PSF was something Bruce himself found useful, and I agree that students should be exposed to it. But after seeing both ways, is there any value in continuing to follow it if the student finds PSB to be better for them?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#338093 - 04/25/07 11:05 AM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: SifuLMDII]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

The power side forward is a key component to practicing Jeet Kune Do as developed, practiced and taught by Bruce Lee. It is mainly the JKD concept practitioners who train with the power side back, as they have taken more of a "whatever" type attitude. Most people, until they experience Jeet Kune Do (or rather REAL Jeet Kune Do), are used to standing more like a boxer, with the power side back. Many instructors seek the easy way out when teaching, therefore just allowing the students to stay in the weak side forward position as if it is no big deal! Well, IT IS a big deal! I would go so far as to say that it is so important that if you don't assume the bai jong with your power side forward at least 90% of the time, you aren't really doing Jeet Kune Do! Jeet Kune Do is designed for self defense, not for sport, therefore it is important to follow ALL of the principles set forth by the founder, not just pick and choose those that you want to! Remember, the lazy or easy way out never accomplished much of anything! Learn right, train right, fight right!





Hello

Forgive me, but something about your post doesn't sound right. I don't think Bruce Lee expected anyone to follow all his principles and just accept them to be true, I think that would be the total opposite of "real" Jeet kune Do. To me it seems you are trying to stylize Jeet Kune Do something which cannot be done, JKD cannot be and should not be stylized no standardize because each person is different, what works for one may not work for another. Furthermore Dan Inosanto himself has gone on record in his videos Difinitive Collection of JKD/FMA. He states that some people have accused him of "muddying" the waters of Jeet Kune Do because he has now developed his method of training which has been altered from the original method Bruce taught him. And because he chooses to train outside the box like Bruce. People expect him to crystallize Jeet Kune Do instead of keeping it a progressive fighting art and allowing it to evolved into something beyond Bruce Lee. I believe those who think that way only hurt Bruce Lee legacy that which is Jeet Kune Do.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#338094 - 04/25/07 12:15 PM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: TeK9]
SifuLMDII Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama USA
Hi Guys!

There are certain principles that should be observed in order for what you are doing to be Jeet Kune Do! These guiding principles are the keys to making Jeet Kune Do work as Bruce Lee intended for it to. In other words, they give it the necessary structure. Power side forward is one of these principles. There are several elements that make Jeet Kune Do what it is. Without the inclusion of these elements, it is not Jeet Kune Do. It is just kickboxing!

There IS a definite structure to this art! A way to stand (bai jong), footwork (push shuffle, sidestep, pendulum shuffle, lunge, etc.), hand techniques (chung chuie, bil jee, qua chuie, oou chuie, etc.), leg techniques (jik tek, juk tek, oou tek, hou tek, dum tek, etc.), lin sil die dar (simultaneous defense and attack), chi sao (sticking hands), phon sao (trapping hands), Bruce Lee's Five Ways of Attack (SDA/SAA, ABC, PIA, HIA, ABD) and so on! The old "well anything I want to call Jeet Kune Do is Jeet Kune do" is a load of crap! Too many hold on to all of the philosophical things they have read that were stated by Bruce Lee. One thing that most people fail to realize is that most of the things that have been published as Bruce Lee's writings are actually just notes that he took from various other publications. This has recently been proven, and brought into the light by a book that was written by my good friend James Bishop! Many people have been shocked to find out just how much of the material published as Bruce Lee's writings were not actually his at all, but notes taken from other sources! The stuff that has been published as his writings was never intended for publication! Too many people take things out of context based on the importance they place on certain writings! Most of these people felt like complete idiots when they found all of this out! Most of what was in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do would have never been published had Bruce Lee lived! IT WAS HIS NOTES!NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS!

That's why I get so sick and tired of reading all of this philosophical stuff posted on the forums by so many people to try and back up their horribly mis-conceived notions as to what Jeet Kune Do is! Jeet Kune Do is a highly scientific method of self defense, based on highly effective, solid scientific principles that will remain constant from now until the end of time! This is THE TRUTH whether anyone likes it or not!

You mentioned Dan Inosanto. Even Dan Inosanto keeps Jeet Kune Do separate from the other arts he teaches, and actually has a Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do class at his academy. He recognizes that it has a structure!

BRUCE LEE'S JEET KUNE DO
Power Side Forward
Bai Jong Position (Small Phasic Bent Knee Stance)
Centerline Preservation
Maximum Economy of Structure
Simplification Over Complication
Light, Quick, Explosive Footwork
Shifty, Alive, Evasive Body Movements
Dynamic Entering Techniques
Longest Weapon to Nearest Target
Emphasis On Interception
Straight and Curved Line Attacks
Aggressive Attack Empasized Over Defense
Lin Sil Die Dar (Simultaneous Defense & Attack)
Bruce Lee's Five Ways of Attack

There is a specific progression to the training! The bottom line is, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THESE THINGS & FOLLOWING THESE PRINCIPLES, THEN YOU ARE NOT DOING JEET KUNE DO! It's just that simple!

It amazes me how there are so many "JKD wannabe's" out there that are willing to say or do anything to try to convince someone that they know what they are talking about and know how to teach Bruce Lee's art! The truth of the matter is that they don't have the slightest clue what JKD really is! Jeet Kune Do is not a "smorgasboard" of martial arts techniques randomly thrown together! It is not a "be whatever you want it to be" martial art! That is WRONG! And to follow that approach and tell someone you are teaching Jeet Kune Do is WRONG! HORRIBLY WRONG! If that is what you are doing, then CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE! IT IS NOT JEET KUNE DO! This is not what Bruce Lee was doing, and this is certainly not where he was headed with the development of his art! He was still chiselling away the inessential elements of combat, not constantly adding "this art" or "that art" to what he was doing!

I hope I have not offended anyone with this post, as that is not my intention! I just get tired of all of the misconceptions as to what TRUE Jeet Kune Do is! I have been training in this art for thirty years! Trust me, I know what I am doing!
_________________________
Keep Blasting! Sifu Lamar M. Davis II HARDCORE JEET KUNE DO http://www.HardcoreJKD.com

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#338095 - 04/25/07 01:53 PM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: Sensei_Kreese]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Lamar -

I note you wrote this:

Quote:

BRUCE LEE'S JEET KUNE DO




I am a bit confused. I thought that Jun Fan was BL's personal take on the system, and JKD was the vehicle for everyone else to find their own personal expression of it.

So would you say that a boxing based JKD (as opposed to Wing Chun) would not be considered true JKD? Do you think it's important for JKD to use specific techniques and styles from which to base itself on?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#338096 - 04/25/07 04:15 PM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: MattJ]
modernsamurai Offline
Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Hawaii
Lamar

I think it is important to distinguish between JKD Core people and JKD concepts people.

You seem to be a pretty die hard CORE person. Which is great, I think it is important to preserve the teachings of Bruce Lee for historical perspective.

Concept JKD on the other hand is concerned with building on the ideas presented by Bruce Lee.

Neither method is wrong, and both methods are JKD. To say that all concept JKD is not true JKD is a very bold thing, and I believe that many of Bruce Lee's original students would disagree with that statement. I know for a fact that Guru Dan and Larry Hartsell could care less if you stand SSF or SSB.

Just for the record I choose to stand SSF but I understand that which hand is forward does not dictate the effectiveness of a persons JKD.

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#338097 - 04/25/07 06:41 PM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: modernsamurai]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
My first thought would, who cares what side forward you have? That isn't to say what is right or wrong with JKD, just a question.

What if I'm ambidextrous?



-John

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#338098 - 04/25/07 08:08 PM Re: The relevance of the power side forward theory [Re: JKogas]
SifuLMDII Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama USA
Hello Everyone!

Jeet Kune Do IS a POWER SIDE FORWARD art! Bruce Lee set forth a series of principles that made Jeet Kune Do what it is, and that is one of the most important principles! This primarily has to do with interception, as you use your power side, which needs to be closest to the opponent so it can be applied in a non-telegraphic manner! Besides, if either hand needs more distance to travel to generate force, it is your weaker side. Remember, Jeet Kune Do means “the way of the intercepting fist”. With your power hand forward you can intercept an opponent with knockout force!

For many years, tradition dictated that you should place the power side to the rear and the weaker side up front. The idea being to use the lead hand as your primary defense tool while reserving the rear, stronger hand for the “killing blow”! If you think about it, it really doesn’t make sense! Your weaker hand is closer to the opponent where it can easily strike, yet the power hand is further away where the opponent has more time to see it coming! More time to see it coming translates as more time to block, parry or simply get out of the way!

Think of this as if we were talking about firearms. This is like having a .22 caliber handgun positioned so that you can’t miss with it and a .44 caliber handgun positioned so that you don’t have time to effectively use it! Why not place the power side to the front? Then the rear, weaker side has more travel distance to generate power! Now you have two .44 caliber handguns! I refer to this as the “two gun” theory. Why only have one effective gun when you could have two? Think about it! It really makes sense!

As for mixing other arts with Jeet Kune Do, this is EXACTLY how Bruce Lee felt about it. Jerry Poteet asked Bruce Lee if he could mix some Jeet Kune Do drills in with the kenpo karate that he was already teaching. This was the letter that he got back from Bruce Lee:

X is Jeet Kune Do.
Y is the style that you will represent.

To represent and teach Y, one
should drill its members according
to the preaching of Y.

This is the same with anyone
who is qualified and has been
approved to represent X.

To justify by interfusing X and Y
is basically the denying of
Y ......... but still calling
it Y.

A man, as you put it, is one
who is noble to stick to the
road he has chosen.

A garden of rose will yield
rose, and a garden of violets
will yield violets.

That pretty much says it all!
_________________________
Keep Blasting! Sifu Lamar M. Davis II HARDCORE JEET KUNE DO http://www.HardcoreJKD.com

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