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#338078 - 04/24/07 10:30 PM How precise is enough?
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Hi, I have some concerns about pressure points and thought strangely enough this wouldn't be a bad place to bring them up. Mainly- In classes we have always practiced body conditioning, hand conditioning and there are a few techniques or points of attack that on looking at the TCM PP charts mary up neatly with a few. My concern is (esp with one technique that strikes under the arm pit)- What are the odds of activating the pp with a fist or open palm strike? or What damage are we potentially doing to ourselves?

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#338079 - 04/25/07 09:16 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: JimmySmith]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
That is a whole lot of question.

Accuracy: how accurate you need to be depends on what other points are around, how close they are and your angle of attack. Also it depends on whether you are hitting with a small weapon, like your single knuckle, or with a large weapon like your palm. Often points are really parts of a cluster of points that are very close together so that if you don't hit one, you'll hit another.

Which weapon you choose, say your fist vs your palm, depends on you. I often hit bony targets with a palm and soft tissue with a fist, ridge or shuto. There is no compelling reason for this except the comfort of the practice situation.

Some folks attach a lot of meaning to the polarity of the weapon or the polarity of the strike. The gets very messy if you want to get more complicated with the polarity of the stance, genders of torre and uke and polarity of the target, polarity of your posture, breathing and what syllable you say on your Kehei. Does that sound complicated? I don't pay attention to most of that stuff because when you and uke are in motion, you can't. It is in flux.

Your odds of doing damage depend on how hard you strike and what else you strike and some ideosyncracies about uke. The most common "damage" is pain. The second most common "damage" is a hollow, or electrical feeling. After that, you get into knock-out situations which range from being dazed and not able to retaliate effectively for a second or two, to full out loss of consciousness that is temporary and rarely has more damage to it than a headache and possibly a little nausea.

Are you asking about the H1 (heart 1) point in the arm pit? You can hit it. It is hard to use since it is rarely exposed. My favorite point under the armpit is about half way between the pit and where the elbow sits when your arm is relaxed by your side. The point is called spleen 21. (SP 21). That one is pretty cool. I get it with my elbow a lot.

If you are practicing with light to medium contact, and not going all out full contact, you are not likely to do more damage. You do not want to break ribs or make it hard for your training partner to breath. You can't really practice pressure points at full contact.
_________________________
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#338080 - 04/26/07 12:01 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: underdog]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the reply Underdog. Not getting into accuracy because I know thats going to open up a whole other kettle fish... Asside from immediate danger then, if I'm striking lets say with a Ginger fist, and hit someone full force in a street situation-> do you or can you cause lasting damage to organs? If so or if there is a chance obviously its a matter of dropping those techniques until later levels where my students have more control. Mainly just need to know the inherent dangers

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#338081 - 04/26/07 08:53 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: underdog]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Underdog:



<<There is no compelling reason for this except the comfort of the practice situation (sic. re: choice of fist vs. palm)

Whether I use the edge of a kitchen knife or the side of it makes no difference what effect occurs ? What am I missing...

<<Does that sound complicated?

"Confused" might be the word you actually meant ?

<<You can't really practice pressure points at full contact.

Regardless of how we articulate the concept of "PP" whether attributing it to basic neurology, a chain reaction of physiology/physiologic systems (ie sudden musculature spasm effecting resperation caused by the diaphram's inability to open normally because of the contracture, etc.)

Can we do any of this truly "full out"? "...Gee sorry about the fractured ribs, and didn't mean to chip your shin bone that way... hey no problem about my cheekbones, they'll heal... "

Won't the easiest answer simply be can we reproduce the effect 99.9% of the time without any faith/knowledge in the method? ie Can I "do it" without being compelled to believe in an alternate physiology methodology-terminology in order for it to work?

Do not know the answer, but do wonder aloud...

Skeptical but hopefully respectful,
Jeff

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#338082 - 04/26/07 10:08 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: JimmySmith]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Someone on one of these threads posted a disgusting link to something on youtube where a guy hit a man full contact in Gb 25 right up and into the kidney. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if I were to learn that the man died. Yes you can cause organ damage and death even with a single strike. I don't know what a ginger fist is.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#338083 - 04/26/07 10:11 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: Ronin1966]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I am confused because I don't understand your question or objection. I get the idea that you disagree with something I said. That is OK. It doesn't bother me. It is a big world with lots of styles, ways of training, and lots of all kinds of diversity. Take care.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#338084 - 04/26/07 06:10 PM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: underdog]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Sorry underdog, i'm not disagreeing with you on anything. A ginger fist is the knuckles of the first phalanges. My question is precision- if I strike with accuracy and hit a pp, Will it still activate the PP if I'm contacting with a greater surface area, like a fist (less precision) or does the strike need to be more precise, like a knuckle (greater precision)

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#338085 - 04/27/07 07:11 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: JimmySmith]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Thanks for the explanation of ginger fist. Sounds like something I used many years ago when I was starting off in TKD. Yes you can hit PP with a large weapon like a fist or palm or elbow or forearm and so on.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#338086 - 07/13/07 05:37 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: underdog]
practica Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/09/03
Posts: 19
A general rule of thumb to follow is that most pressure points can be located in/have an area of about one 10p piece, or a Dime (I think). So, say you're going for a neck point. If you smash your fist into their in a hook punch (good delivery system) your fist could easily cover two or even three good points.

Most people fixate on how pressure points are 'light finger touches' etc. But you don't need to be 'that' accurate to hit them. Which is good because you're going to be relying on gross motor skills in an altercation.

Work on accuracy in class. Have someone stand in a fighting stance for example and place your weapon of choice on to the points available. They stand like that for 3 seconds then move into another position (preferably an attack) and hold that for three seconds.

After you're comfortable with that drill drop the time to two seconds and then one second.

Don't forget that you can use them defensively as well so a valid part of the drill would be to attack their arm as it comes in and then move to another point.

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#338087 - 07/13/07 08:00 AM Re: How precise is enough? [Re: practica]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I like your drill. SOunds like a nice safe way for a beginner to get a lot of practice in on a session.

There are some points that require some precision with a smaller weapon like a knuckle, but you don't need to worry about them. The American coinage for size, according to Dillman's old tapes, would be a quarter. A dime is pretty small.
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