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#335848 - 04/19/07 05:20 PM chain whip tips?
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
I realized lately, from watching some videos online, that my chain whip skills have a long way to go. To get things started, I was looking for some help on two things for which I never got a clear answer:

1. Are you expected to have your standard good kung fu stances for chain whip, or is it okay to stand high/straighter?

2. Just how in the world do you do that move where the chain whip just nicely folds itself back into your hands??
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"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335849 - 04/19/07 07:00 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Soft weapons are hardest to learn. I'm no good with the chainwhip either. I've got no clue how to fold it up all at once...I've only seen anyone do that in the movies, so it might only be possible by moving the film in reverse *lol* I was taught how to fold up the nine section in three tosses, that's the best I can do.

In our form there weren't a lot of low stances, it's not performed using forward stances or horse stances or anything, mostly natural stance. you're constantly stepping forward and back to keep the whip moving, besides the occassional butterfly kick, and that ground section where you spin it over and under your body.

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#335850 - 04/20/07 10:49 AM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: WuXing]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Your form sounds pretty cool. I haven't learned any butterfly kicks or ground sections yet. Here's a video of a more traditional chain whip form. The guy does do buttefly kicks, splits and ground moves. AND he can do the folding move at the end.

Chain Whip

Another thing I noticed is that traditional and modern wushu chain whip forms are rather similar, other than the type of chain used.

Does this mean that there's finally something more fighting oriented in modern wushu, or simply that chain whip is probably not a no-nonsense weapon to begin with?
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335851 - 04/20/07 12:08 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
There does not seem to be much difference between traditional and wushu chain whip in technique. Perhaps a little more gymnastics, but there is a whole lot of difference between the chain whip's being used.

The traditional ones are very substantial in weight. The wushu ones are most often toys in comparison, ultra light weight(as are most wushu weapons) to allow greater speed.

Neither would be fun to be hit by, but you have a greater chance surviving the wushu version where the traditional one with more impact behind it will create a larger dent.

Here's a two chain whip form.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=s8OKQ1cxyh4&mode=related&search=
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#335852 - 04/20/07 02:02 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: Victor Smith]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Cool performance! I hadn't ran into that video of John Su yet.

But I do believe double chain whip is more for performance? The techniques you can do with two chains seem to be a lot less and less effective than with just one chain? Am I right on that?
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335853 - 04/20/07 04:02 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I never tried the steel whip myself, my flexible weapons did a bit of 3 section staff though.

If we were talking street effectiveness, one would make the day. The double steel whip is probably to develop advanced movement ablities than for actual usage.

But most of the Chinese weapons stopped for reality long ago, China inventing gun powder.

Likewise, with the upcoming onsought of metal detectors, steel whips will hardly be conceable, as their original intent was.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#335854 - 04/20/07 05:13 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: Victor Smith]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
haha, you make good points. I totally forgot firearms exist. (I really shouldn't, with the Virginia Tech events happening recently and all). How do you like the 3-section staff by the way? Looks like a very fun weapon to work with!

I guess I'm still trying to differentiate, practice and appreciate things for what they are. With modern wushu, that doesn't come easy.

With their weapons, (again, other that the weapon itself), it all seems to be very close to the traditional stuff, except maybe highlighting the cooler looking movements.

Their empty hand forms also seem to be somewhat similar to traditional (once you filter out the extreme moves and all that running around the matt).

I guess in the end, I stick to how they say modern wushu is more of a performance art than fighting, so don't keep high hopes for it to be applicable. Yet, with a lot of the techniques being present.. how can that be? (Maybe I'm missing something here, being that I never tried wushu first hand)

Going back to the chain whip... I guess I just would like to know what's traditional and modern (ie, fighting applicable, for performanc, or simply for training movmeents)

If certain moves are just for looks, then I would like to know. It'll save me from the time and frustration learning applications for a move that basically just looks cool. I do enjoy simply performing and doing forms. But in the end, I owe it to myself to learn combat applications and such... afterall, that's why I chose to go with the traditional route, instead of modern wushu.
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335855 - 04/20/07 05:18 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: WuXing]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Quote:

I was taught how to fold up the nine section in three tosses, that's the best I can do.





That sounds interesting! never heard of it. could you explain what it is a bit more?

And thanks for the rely regarding stances. I have been using the natural stance for more of the form too. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't being lazy or developing a bad habit.

About the folding move... I figured how to get myself on video... now, how do I reverse the video?? sounds challenging too haha
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335856 - 04/20/07 08:32 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
I don't really know a lot about the chain whip. I only learned the basics, and never spent the time to actually get good at it. I think that there are only so many ways to change up the spins of the whip, so any form is going to look very similar...you've got the arm/elbow change, the shoulder change, the foot/leg change, the neck change. wrapping it around the body and unwinding it, shooting it off the foot or the elbow. blocking with the whip held at both ends, and spinning from the middle with both ends whipping around (not sure how effective that one is, but it's in there). Wushu throws in more acrobatics, like Victor says. The traditional forms would focus more on generating power with the whip, and practicing its methods of attack and defense, I'd think. Of course, I 'm not sure where the butterfly kicks and ground moves come in, but they're in every demonstration of any chainwhip form I've ever seen. Of course, I'm not an expert anyways.

As for catching it, seeing that guy do it makes it look possible *lol*...when you first mentioned it, I thought of the movie Iron Monkey, where it shoots back into his hand horizontally *lol*. I depends on how many sections of whip you have, too. when I do it, I toss it up like the guy in the video did, and catch the tip, then toss up the rest and sort of fold it in half, and then toss the rest into my hand. with nine sections it seems to work out that way. I think that way is just a shortcut for those who haven't mastered the weapon enough to do it all at once.

three section staff is more painful than the chainwhip. It's a "soft" weapon that's really hard when it hits you in the head. (remember the fight in Fearless, where the Japanese guy ends up with the three section, and smacks himself? *lol* we joke that the most effective way to defeat an attacker is to give him your three section and let him knock himself out)
I've practiced with it more than the chainwhip, enough that I don't clobber myself most of the time. I'm a wimp, though, and got a rattan one with ball bearing chain links really, I'm never going to fight with this thing, it's practice is more for coordination and dexterity.

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#335857 - 04/20/07 09:23 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: WuXing]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I studied 3 sectional staff for about a year, but when I moved up to New England about 22 years ago I no longer had anyplace with the space to train. It is a power weapon, probably designed to smash over sheild lines in battle.

And yes it can give you a heck of a KO to the head or the groin (real ouch).

Here is one of the better old kung fu flics that shows a fanciful description of the 3 section staff being created and used. From the 36 Chamber and well worth your time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW5U2AVqz1w
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#335858 - 04/20/07 09:30 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Then to step it up for the most flexible of weapons, try rope dart or meteor hammer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhW67MBO8M8
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#335859 - 04/22/07 08:17 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: WuXing]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Quote:

I don't really know a lot about the chain whip. I only learned the basics, and never spent the time to actually get good at it. I think that there are only so many ways to change up the spins of the whip, so any form is going to look very similar...you've got the arm/elbow change, the shoulder change, the foot/leg change, the neck change. wrapping it around the body and unwinding it, shooting it off the foot or the elbow. blocking with the whip held at both ends, and spinning from the middle with both ends whipping around (not sure how effective that one is, but it's in there). Wushu throws in more acrobatics, like Victor says. The traditional forms would focus more on generating power with the whip, and practicing its methods of attack and defense, I'd think. Of course, I 'm not sure where the butterfly kicks and ground moves come in, but they're in every demonstration of any chainwhip form I've ever seen. Of course, I'm not an expert anyways.

As for catching it, seeing that guy do it makes it look possible *lol*...when you first mentioned it, I thought of the movie Iron Monkey, where it shoots back into his hand horizontally *lol*. I depends on how many sections of whip you have, too. when I do it, I toss it up like the guy in the video did, and catch the tip, then toss up the rest and sort of fold it in half, and then toss the rest into my hand. with nine sections it seems to work out that way. I think that way is just a shortcut for those who haven't mastered the weapon enough to do it all at once.

three section staff is more painful than the chainwhip. It's a "soft" weapon that's really hard when it hits you in the head. (remember the fight in Fearless, where the Japanese guy ends up with the three section, and smacks himself? *lol* we joke that the most effective way to defeat an attacker is to give him your three section and let him knock himself out)
I've practiced with it more than the chainwhip, enough that I don't clobber myself most of the time. I'm a wimp, though, and got a rattan one with ball bearing chain links really, I'm never going to fight with this thing, it's practice is more for coordination and dexterity.




Some good points again. Looking at some of the vids again, I guess power and intend, as mentioned before in the thread, make the difference. And it's true... only so many ways to move this chain around, so not surprised that modern wushu's version looks similar.

I have seen iron monkey before and yes... it would be rather impressive if someone could nicely fold back the chain horizontally multiple times like that.

3-section sounds really fun. I hope to learn it someday. Most I've done with it was try to spin it around. Must say it was rather painful on my head and legs. I thought it'd be easier to control than a chain whip because it has less joints, but I was quite wrong.

But yes, I doubt either weapon would be my first choice in a brawl, or war (had I lived in ancient times). But it has made my other weapons better. My qi nah has benefited a lot from chain whip training, somehow.
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335860 - 04/22/07 08:22 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: Victor Smith]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
oh yes! 36th chamber of shaolin was definitely worth the watch. That movie always finds its way to re-motivate me whenever I'm either stuck or uninspired.

rope dart/meteor hammer looks impressive. Rope dart was actually the first weapon I've ever seen, performed live. I've heard different opinions as far as it being a step up/down from chain whip. Thoughts?
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335861 - 04/23/07 03:15 AM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

I've heard different opinions as far as it being a step up/down from chain whip. Thoughts?




I'd say one step up. Not that I have tried any of them, but in France a fair number of schools will teach you the chain-whip, while only one master in the whole country teaches the rope-dart.

That rare dude happens to be my instructor.
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#335862 - 04/23/07 09:39 AM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
It might be considered a "step up" because it is the most flexible of weapons. I think in terms of learning it, it may be a little easier on the body. In that documentary Victor posted a clip of, they say that more kung fu students get injured learning the chain whip than any other weapon. The only reaon I haven't stuck the tip into my own head is because I wrapped it with some foam when I started learning it *lol*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss

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#335863 - 04/30/07 08:39 AM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
18lohans - greetings and respect.

I chanced upon this thread accidentally -- I'm familiar with a few chain whip techniques that I have been fortunate to have been shown but was looking for something more (haven't found anything online though!).

As far as height (while swinging the chain) goes, you want to stay properly squatted. More power, stability and allows for better body turning/movement. This is the same principle as doing the figure 8 when holding the end of a staff.

As far as snatching the chain back into your hand ... leave it to the movies

I love the section whip, have just started practising with it recently again. How's your practise going ?

One method - holding and shooting.
Hold the handle

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#335864 - 04/30/07 02:12 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: northstar]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Thanks for the reply, northstar.

Properly squatted, as in stances you would do for empty hand forms? Because I personally find the chain to be kind of long for my usual stances, which would require me to swing the chain with my hand above my head.

So far I've managed to somewhat collect the chain in my hand at the end, just to finish the form. I wonder how nicely the guys in the videos out there can fold it back... What I'm doing right now is definitely not a functional movement though (like the one in Iron Monkey).

Practice with the chain whip is a lot of fun, however, it can be equally painful. I would like to have at least decent form with this weapon, so I guess I better suck it up until I cna stop hitting myself.
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335865 - 05/01/07 07:34 AM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: 18lohans]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
18 lohans - you're welcome.

Are you into it for traditional/practical/applicable or are you more into the contemporary performance side ?

Traditionally, or practically if you will, don't use your forward or gong stance when doing 'figure eights'. Squat low, back straight, hips tucked in and walk by shifting your weight from leg to leg and simply walking forward or backward.

Can you shoot it ? What other moves can you do ?

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#335866 - 05/01/07 12:25 PM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: northstar]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
I'm definitely more into the traditional side. But this is not to say I don't enjoy performance wushu. Some of the stuff in there, specially for chain whip is quite impressive and entertaining.

So far I've only worked on the form. Shooting, from what I understand is more on the application side. I guess it'll be a while before I get to learn how to apply the whip. So for closest to shooting would be the release movement in the beginning on the form. How do you practice shooting? Is it basically the release, and then the pull back?

Other moves include your typical direction changes with the wrist, elbow, neck, shoulder, leg, etc. Then there are a few stoping movements and turns.

I'd be interested in heaing more of your chain whip applications.
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#335867 - 05/02/07 05:16 AM Re: chain whip tips? [Re: Victor Smith]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
I find shooting quite simple; hold the handle in your hand but only with your little to middle finger.

Hold the rest of the whip wrapped up with your thumb and index finger.

You can be quite discreet while it is held like this too. While standing side on to someone, you can hold it on your other side hidden behind your body.

To 'shoot' it, simply toss or throw your arm out and release the chain whip at the same time (while holding onto the handle of course), just follow the kinetics.

Not difficult to shoot it accurately as it should fly out in the direction which you 'strike' at.

I used to hang targets and would sometimes throw stuff into the air and hit it. When you've got the accuracy, start practising with more power... meaning you have to have a decently balanced rope dart. Wushu ones are quite light but imbalanced (the head and the chain are too similiar in weight -- though this does make it less painful when you strike).

Not too hard to make one, though a good one to practise accuracy, power and precision (the angle the blade enters/cuts at) is to use a knife -- get an knife with an eyelet and tie an appropriate rope through it and use this as a rope dart/chain whip to practise with. Cardboard boxes make great targets, if you are throwing the knife with all your power and it doesn't stick into the box, then you're doing something wrong.

I'm hardly an expert and only know a few moves;

changing directions using crescent kicks.

wrapping and releasing with the elbow; good for that extra power and striking/swinging when you have suddenly lost range (if they close in on you, for example).

Ananother very useful move (if space allows) is to swing it overheard, at a 45 degree angle, like a helicopter. You can keep a number of people in check like this.

Remember you can always grab the chain half way and use it like a short whip.

There are a few 'wrapping' and 'tying' techniques for close range combat as well.

Important thing is to keep it tight ! Keeping this in mind, the few years that I've played with the section whip I've never hit myself.

The figure eight is without doubt the signature move. Swing fast and heavy, overhand and underhand. Aim to hit with the tip or close to it, that natural reaction is to block it and recieve the heavy tip that doesn't stop swinging.

If it gets deflected or caught, be prepared to pull, kick, let go and change position. Remember that when people grab they are potentially setting themselves up for a throw, lock, etc.

I'm quite fond of the section whip. I don't qualify, but it is definately in my top five weapons (of not only preference but confidence in usage).

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