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#335094 - 01/31/08 11:50 AM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: MattJ]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
thats kind of how our school works. you have the option of either paying one month at a time or for three months at a discounted rate. More than that and you risk loosing money, especially when you consider how dangerous and accident prone the martial arts are.

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#335095 - 01/31/08 12:32 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: Sorin]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Rule of thumb: ANY school that makes you sign a long term contract is a McDojo. Period.

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#335096 - 01/31/08 02:40 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: fileboy2002]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
How is this any different, really, than signing a lease, phone contract, or gym membership, or for that matter a 30 year mortgage? Why is it ok to agree to pay for a service for a year for these items, yet not in the Martial Arts?

A contract is a contract, both parties agreed to it. If the person who signed the contract isn't willing to live with the consequenses if they can't fulfill that contract or if they don't read the contract, then they shouldn't sign the contract in the first place. It's not the instructors fault if you choose not to go to class.

Do I like long term contracts? no, but they often provide additional benefits, like saving money over time.

Laura

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#335097 - 01/31/08 02:54 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: tkd_high_green]
SNieves Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 76
Your comparison is flawed (no offense). Did you get to look at the house and see if it fits your need? Did you get to have the house inspected? Did you receive a report on the inspection? Does that happen with Martial Art schools? Therein lies the difference between these [McDojo] contracts and a home purchase contract.

Also, realize that many of these contracts are designed to lock you in for X amount of time. So, if you get hurt and can't continue, guess what, you continue to pay. Do YOU want to pay for something you can't use? I don't.

If you signed a long term contract for Martial Arts training, that's your concern. I for one will never do that (again). I would be interested in seeing the contract you may have signed (sans the personal information of course).

Quote:

How is this any different, really, than signing a lease, phone contract, or gym membership, or for that matter a 30 year mortgage? Why is it ok to agree to pay for a service for a year for these items, yet not in the Martial Arts?

A contract is a contract, both parties agreed to it. If the person who signed the contract isn't willing to live with the consequenses if they can't fulfill that contract or if they don't read the contract, then they shouldn't sign the contract in the first place. It's not the instructors fault if you choose not to go to class.

Do I like long term contracts? no, but they often provide additional benefits, like saving money over time.

Laura




Edited by SNieves (01/31/08 03:00 PM)

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#335098 - 01/31/08 03:00 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: tkd_high_green]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Because they already know the attrition stats...and plan on making money off of the 'customer' knowing full well how many people quit before one year? Because...when the mortgage is paid you actually own something of value...and most MA is monetarily WITHOUT value? Because it protects crappy instruction, and crappy schools/styles that don't deliver the goods...and you have little recourse for legal action? Whereas...with a house...you can go back to the buyer...there is legal recourse written into the contract.

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#335099 - 01/31/08 03:02 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: harlan]
SNieves Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 76
Correct. Most home sale contracts protect both the buyer and seller. These MA contracts we are discussing only really benefit the martial arts school and are detrimental to the student in almost all cases.

Quote:

Becuase they already know the attrition stats...and plan on making money off of the 'customer' knowing full well how many people quit before one year? Because...when the mortgage is paid you actually own something of value...and most MA is monetarily WITHOUT value? Because it protects crappy instruction, and crappy schools/styles that don't deliver the goods...you have little recourse for legal action. Whereas...with a house...you can go back to the buyer...there is legal recourse written into the contract.



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#335100 - 01/31/08 04:41 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: SNieves]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
If I get hurt and can't pay my mortgage, I loose my house and my investment. If I get hurt and can't pay my phone bill, I loose my phone service and in either case my credit report is f'd up. How many people are loosing their homes because of the current mortgage scandals? How many people didn't read and understand their contracts before signing them?

I really have no sympathy for people who don't read the fine print, understand fully what they are signing, and then whine about it when it doesn't go the way they want it too.

If people took the time to read the contract before signing it and didn't sign bad contracts in the first place, then fewer schools would offer them.

A good instructor will provide adequate exit clauses, injury, moving, etc, or let the person get out of the contract if they ask, but legally, they really don't have to. You signed it, you agreed to it, it's your responsibility to honor it.

Laura

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#335101 - 01/31/08 05:01 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: tkd_high_green]
SNieves Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 76
I see. I can't disagree with the "read the contract" thing, but well, I guess you are saying it's ok to create dishonest and harmful contracts and use it even if it hurts folks. For the record, I feel no sympathy for folks that don't read what they sign either. That doesn't make it right for folks to use dishonest business practices, which you seem to be ok with.

BTW: I have to ask, how long is your contract for? Would you be interested in sharing it with us (again, minus the personal details)?

And if you ever want to get out of your contract early, please let us know what happens. I would be interested in knowing what occurs.

Quote:

If I get hurt and can't pay my mortgage, I loose my house and my investment. If I get hurt and can't pay my phone bill, I loose my phone service and in either case my credit report is f'd up. How many people are loosing their homes because of the current mortgage scandals? How many people didn't read and understand their contracts before signing them?

I really have no sympathy for people who don't read the fine print, understand fully what they are signing, and then whine about it when it doesn't go the way they want it too.

If people took the time to read the contract before signing it and didn't sign bad contracts in the first place, then fewer schools would offer them.

A good instructor will provide adequate exit clauses, injury, moving, etc, or let the person get out of the contract if they ask, but legally, they really don't have to. You signed it, you agreed to it, it's your responsibility to honor it.

Laura



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#335102 - 01/31/08 07:01 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: SNieves]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
From a business standpoint, I can understand contracts. I don't care for them personally, but if there are expenses, such as rent, utilities, or payroll...it seems sensible to offer short term contracts to individuals especially when there are incentives to do so.

It's not my cup of tea. Been training for 4 years now without any formal contract. Although, I once suggested to my teacher that I might move on...and he point blank replied, 'You can quit when you replace yourself.' Some contracts don't have an expiration date.

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#335103 - 01/31/08 07:10 PM Re: Contracts made by schools [Re: tkd_high_green]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
tkd

I think you already put your finger on it--a "good instructor" is the pivot point.

I have little sympathy for those that don't read their contracts as well.
Buts its one thing not "read the fine print" and quite something else to be delbrately misled.

A "good" teacher does not do that--but a "bad" one will.

A good contract should protect both parties---if say my phone service claimed that I can get coverage in "X" region and I can't--then its in breach and I'm out of it.
Most martial arts contracts don't so much as mention "instucture suck-age" in the wording.

A proper contract is NOT supposed to be a clever means of taking advantage of someone's ignorance.

I have NO problem with fully functioning adults having to take responsibility for their actions---which IMO should INCLUDE poor teachers and "scam-a-rei."

Fast-talking some poor sap into signing a punative and predatory contract is IMO something that one needs to be held responsible for.

But I do agree that signing a contract just to get a lower payment then deciding to quite--essentially taking advantage of the teacher--is also something you might need to take your lumps over.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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