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#335042 - 01/17/07 08:11 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
There are systems that have rank, but don't wear it. (kyu ranks in Aikido come to mind).

actually, I think Aikido has the most reasonable ranking system. A local Aikido club here gives the option of paying a test fee or not...but the student still tests either way. Since the dojo is affiliated with an organization in Japan, the org test fee pays for the ranking certificate which is universally accepted (since the org is accepted as legitimate budo by whatever heirarchy Japan uses for that system, and the instructor administering the test is likewise affiliated and trained/ranked by a senior member). no fee = no certificate. but the rank is still recognized within that local dojo only. generally, thats only applicable for mudansha ranks. post-yudansha, the student must legitimize the rank in order to be considered for future dan grades.

I think that way makes the most sense for commercial dojo. for dojo/teachers which are not affiliated with a recognized issuer of rank - their rank is considered 'local rank' only....pretty much limited to that person's whim of what they want to rank themselves and claim...if at all.

so what is a 'recognized issuer of rank' ? and who designates them as such? I dunno people branch off, create their own organization, issue ranks, etc often without any recognition of legitimacy from it's parent organization. Receiving rank from an organization as such, makes the rank you receive/pay for only recognized within that org. If the org is large (has many affiliated dojos), it gives more appearance of legitimacy (and perhaps in a way, rightfully so...since 'legitimacy' itself is a term which basically serves as: 'formally recognized by many').

you can't really 'decline promotion' - plus it's considered bad form to decline such a thing...but some dojo allow you to decline organizational recognition of that promotion.

never decline rank issued by your instructor - think of the rank as just being used for teaching's like declining to learn something that is taught - you just don't do it unless you quit altogether. but I don't think pre-shodan rank would be necessary to be organizationally recognized.

#335043 - 01/18/07 02:23 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Fletch1:

Remove the money entirely from the equasion and that problem disappears immediately. Personally have no need for review by strangers whom I will never meet again, and have no other interactions. If I did interact and/or felt sufficently strongly (ie seriously important to me) I suppose paying the money would be necessary...

Given only the options you presented I vote for outside the curricilium route.

We also change nothing for the testing. The belt &certificate combined are minimal... $10 I think? We had folks who had no real interest in testing were essentially the same rank for 20 years... despite having no fees/testing boards....

One walked away continuing to their ~own drummer~, another became very, very good. Interesting topic, thank you...


#335044 - 12/08/07 03:26 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: eyrie]
DojiSan Offline

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
My instructor ask us to pay $15 to test. If we feel ready and he feels we are not ready then he will refuse to test us. His reasoning is that the $15 pays for the belt and the certificate. I have no problem with that because if we fail then we don't have to repay again.

#335045 - 12/08/07 07:52 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: wristtwister]
JAMJTX Offline

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
It would be up to the instructor to decide what his school is going to be about: art or money.

If it's about the art, you eliminate the certificate fees.
If it's about money, charge what you want to and anyone that doesn't pay doesn't train.

#335046 - 12/09/07 11:00 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: JAMJTX]
tkd_high_green Offline

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Just an idea, at my school we have many lower income students who are able to attend because of scholarships they've received, or because they or their parents have traded services for tuition, such as cleaning the dojang or yard work, etc.


#335047 - 12/09/07 03:45 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Fletch1:

I LOVE RENEGADES!!!! An outstanding question for those it would apply towards.


#335048 - 12/10/07 10:09 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Fleth1:

Disappointing thought for certain others would chime-in. Hummmngh. Lets kick this around see if we can generate a little maybe? Ok, now neither of us use them (testing fees) but lets play devils advocate here anyway.

Pretending I used them, how would it work, I charge a nice round number ummmngh..... $50 in order to take the test? Failing, if I did not charge you the second time through, the third time taking it again... would that be more acceptable?

What happens if the testing fee were merely $25 dollars? Would that be "reasonable"? If that fee was mandatory with
the head office of your organization in Bumble but whom you never saw at all?

Can there be a reasonable, justifiable testing fee IYHO?

Now, if you did not wish to take part in the administrative sillyness of my organization (pretending we used this stuff) should you be compelled in order to gain new information.... Wonder what clever methods there would be to avoid this avoidable problem, within that approach? Waiving the testing fee once? (ie once but only once proving the fee did not change relative to the rank) Pass them and give them their belt but no certificates, until such time as they pay the fees to their current level?

Think that could work?

You raise an interesting question for those groups with signifigant administrative overheads.... international groups, etc.


#335049 - 12/10/07 04:41 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Ronin1966]
tkd_high_green Offline

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont

Can there be a reasonable, justifiable testing fee IYHO?

for colored belt and maintenance testing, our fee's are quite small, but they cover the cost of the belt, boards, and pizza afterwards.

Black belt fees are more expensive as it also covers the cost of the certificate as well. However, you have years to save up for that, so it isn't a big deal.


#335050 - 12/10/07 08:14 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: tkd_high_green]
BadDad Offline

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 4
My story...

I am 47 yo white belt, taking traditional Shotokan from a local dojo with a 40 year history in the same location. I started about 5 years ago after my son and wife enrolled. Testing is held twice/year. No fee for test or belt. Only white, brown and black belts.

I tested the first two years but stopped 3 years ago when the son and wife stopped going. I practice 4 days a week at the 6AM class which is usually just me, the master, and another 47 yo black belt with about 20 years training. Many others have come and gone but no on else has stuck with the early class.

Last year the Master asked me to test for Brown Belt saying the school could use a Brown Belt in the morning class. I explained that I really didn't care about the rank but would test if he wanted me to.

Problem is when I tested (basically a 6-8 hour ordeal on a Saturday) it was obvious the "Black Belt Council", (5 or more Sandan's, Yodan's and Godan's from other dojo's), was not going to let me test for 3 kyu (brown belt). I am pretty sure they were offended that I hadn't tested for two plus years. I could tell I was being held back when they did not ask me to perform any of the upper level kata. Two years before when testing for 6th Kyu I was asked to perform two Heian's, Bassai, and Tekki Shodan. This time I was only asked to perform Heian Yodan.

I spoke with the Master the next practice and explained that I was very dissapointed that I had shown up at his request and was not allowed to test for 3rd Kyu. I have not tested for a year and a half. At my age I don't like being messed with and don't have the time for dojo politics or BS.

Am I wrong to not test?

The angry white belt

#335051 - 12/10/07 10:57 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: BadDad]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
So, dod your teacher offer any explanation? What did he say?

If he wants to promote you, he should just promote you or at least let the people testing you know what is going on.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

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