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#335032 - 01/15/07 10:44 PM Declining promotion re: promotion fees
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
This is just something I was thinking about after reading about belt test fees.

Say that you have a student who joins your class and gets to the point where he is ready for promotion. Your program involves paying a certain amount of $$$ and everyone else pays. This student says that he doesn't care about promotion and declines the test if he has to pay for it. He tells you that he will just stay at his present rank and keep training.

As an instructor in a Professional Facility, what do you do?

Do you allow him to keep training at his current rank and restrict him to material appropriate for his level?

Do you allow him to keep training and allow him to work "outside the belt curriculum" to advance on his own without belts?

Do you pressure him to pay the fee and take the promotion?

Do you "comp" his fee and test him anyway, so that he will progress in both skill and belt level along with everyone else?

We don't charge for belt promotions and have no formalized tests for our adults so this is not for me. I was just curious as I have seen students balk about test fees.
_________________________
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#335033 - 01/15/07 11:13 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
My school charges neither for testing nor for tuition (promoting students costs us money because we have to buy the belt), so we avoid this issue for about the reason you raised, which is a credibility crisis. Eventually, you can end up with a white belt with black belt skills.

What do you admit at this point? Anything you do will make you look stupid. Even if you comp him, you're admitting that the other students are being ripped off.

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#335034 - 01/16/07 09:27 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Do you allow him to keep training at his current rank and restrict him to material appropriate for his level?




Tough choice. If you are charging for rank, then I think the only fair thing to do is restrict the new material that student would learn. Only fair to the other students that have paid for their advancements.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#335035 - 01/16/07 10:03 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
MikeC Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Kingston Ontario
This should have been explained to the beginner when they signed up at the beginning. In a commercial school the purpose of the fees is to support the facilties and instructor. In schools that use grading as a sign of progress, you can not get around that a beginner has to gradeup. How many exceptions are you willing to make?

I am non-commercial and do not charge for gradings but students must grade when they are ready.

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#335036 - 01/16/07 10:05 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: MattJ]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Tough call. The most I've seen is someone request to wait a testing period because they didn't feel ready to test.

While I don't care if I test or not, if my instructor says I'm testing I will and I will pay whatever fee is asked. Our rates are not high and I know that the money I spend in class or testing fees just goes to support the club. Plus I find it valuable because we get written feedback to help us improve and see how we are doing over time. I personally find the testing sheet to be more important than the belt.

I guess if it were me, I would ask the person why they didn't want to test.

Laura

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#335037 - 01/16/07 11:04 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I don't understand the conflict. One is paying for a belt...to acquire status within a dojo. Outside of the dojo, in another system, it's meaningless anyway.

If he is willing to be unranked, to be happy with training and be of use (sparring partner) to those with rank within the 'club' and stand last in line (white belt/newbie 'status')...seems like a good deal.

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#335038 - 01/16/07 11:09 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I don't understand the conflict. One is paying for a belt...to acquire status within a dojo.




That is over-simplifying a bit, IMHO. Many schools have rank requirements to learn different parts of the total syllabus. So, if you want to learn more techniques or kata, then you must advance in rank to do so. Some people are interested in learning the material, and not just for "status" ie; belt rank.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#335039 - 01/16/07 11:22 AM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:

Many schools have rank requirements to learn different parts of the total syllabus. So, if you want to learn more techniques or kata, then you must advance in rank to do so.



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#335040 - 01/16/07 06:22 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: Fletch1]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If the belt is earnt and rank is conferred, why would I as a student have to PAY for it?

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#335041 - 01/16/07 10:39 PM Re: Declining promotion re: promotion fees [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I think part of the problem is that there are lots of different types of dojos out there... some of which are "black belt mills" and others that are legitimately trying to produce results with the students. Whether or not money is involved, I've always been one that would teach anyone all (not really ALL) I knew as long as they gave it the kind of effort to make the skills work.

I've found that "teaching over their head" helps as much as teaching at their "level", so whether or not you're teaching a blue belt the skills of a black belt, they will have to develop what it takes to make the skills work for them. Since learning isn't linear, the particular regimen you use to get them trained is only important if they're paying X dollars for this set of skills and Y dollars for "that" set of skills.

I still like the "years of training" rank idea, because there are some people out there that would never reach yellow belt if they only got there on skills. At least, YOT promotions recognize that you've spent some time in the dojo... and if you're wearing a black belt, you better have what it takes, 'cause I'll launch you...

It's kind of like walking up and getting into a race car. You're only in trouble if they didn't bother to install the brakes...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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