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#333303 - 04/08/07 02:32 AM kondo sensei
daitoryustudent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 7
just asking a question here, has anyone ever gone on youtube and seen the videos of kondo sensei and master takeda's son? If you watch them one time it all looks impressive but if you watch them again can you tell that they are putting muscle into the techniques and not using their energy right like Takeda Senior intended? Look closely at Kondo you'll see what I mean by how rigid he is with his movements and how there is just no fluidity there. It just looks wrong.

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#333304 - 04/08/07 05:07 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: daitoryustudent]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Could you post links to the clips you're talking about?

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#333305 - 04/08/07 05:07 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: daitoryustudent]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
First, on what experiance are you basing this on?

Second, no one knows how Sogaku Takeda moved. He taught in diffirent ways, to diffirent people.


Edited by Ames (04/08/07 05:08 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#333306 - 04/09/07 03:48 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: Ames]
Jose Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 41
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I just find it interesting that you can critique the movements of Tokimune Takeda and Katsuyuki Kondo as looking wrong.

Jose Garrido
_________________________
Jose' delCristo Garrido Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Mainline Tradition NYC Metro Study Group

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#333307 - 04/09/07 04:30 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: daitoryustudent]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
daito

Fascinating, please tell us more of what "Takeda senior intended."

Since you seem to know what was on the guys mind and how he wanted things to be--no doubt you trained personally with Takeda senior for many decades to speak with such authority???

Love hearing how guys that trained for many years directly under the master in question are doing it "wrong" according to some dude that has looked at a youtube vid see's it.


Edited by cxt (04/09/07 04:31 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#333308 - 10/07/07 04:50 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: daitoryustudent]
bamboosero Offline
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Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 18
Loc: NYC, U.S.A.
Your observation is very astute. Kondo AND Sokaku's son did not receive aiki-no-jutsu nor aikijujutsu as part of their upbringing in DR. They got only the straight Daito-ryu jujutsu.

There are few schools of Daito-ryu that retain aiki to any degree. AFAIK, those are Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu (highest level), Kodokai (damn good) and Roppokai (spinoff of Kodokai and somewhat narrowly focused curriculum but serviceable aiki).

There are a few "renegades" as well practicing DR aiki in the U.S. and elsewhere, without affiliation to the above schools, but their lineage can be traced to one of those sources.


Edited by bamboosero (10/07/07 04:52 PM)

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#333309 - 10/07/07 09:14 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: bamboosero]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
And I guess you've studied with the Kodokai, the Sagawa dojo, and the Ropokai.

Also, if Sogaku Takeda Sensei didn't teach his son the Aiki-no-jutsu and the Aikijujutsu portions of the curriculum, why did he leave the art to him?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#333310 - 10/07/07 10:33 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: Ames]
bamboosero Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 18
Loc: NYC, U.S.A.
Just Kodokai-educated (no longer affiliated), but have felt aiki from Roppokai and Sagawa dojo too. You can feel Roppokai aiki if you want -- Okomoto Sensei is doing a seminar in Long Island, NY this week. He travels to the U.S. fairly regularly, but is getting on in years so if you want to feel his aiki, now's the time. Contact Howard Popkin if you're interested. He is the contact person in Long Island.

There was a lot of political subterfuge and skullduggery involved in who "got to inherit" Daito-ryu. It was not a clean descent from then to today. My advice is that you get a copy of Stanley Pranin's excellent summary book of Daito-ryu history, "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (Interviews With Daito-ryu Masters").

And, just because a person is the son or grandson of a great master doesn't mean said master will pass his full art onto that offspring. There are many reasons why skills may be withheld, such as the innate lack of talent of a son or daughter, lack of character, or political influences. A lot of guys kept their arts to themselves and didn't give a hoot whether it was continued for posterity or not.

Takeda, as was noted earlier, typically custom-tailored what he gave to his students based on their body types and abilities. To big, strong fellas he gave jujutsu. The smaller, less robust guys got aiki because it provides an advantage that is not based on muscular strength or body size.

Anyhoo, I recommend trying to feel Roppokai aiki since Roppokai is the most open of the aiki schools. It's the one way to be able to discern what aiki is, at least on a basic level, and thus be able to tell who actually has it and who doesn't when you feel other people's waza.

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#333311 - 10/07/07 10:58 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: bamboosero]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
bamboo

So if its all a question of body type/size maybe you could help me out with a few things?

-What counts as "big" with the japanese? Ueshiba was not very tall but he was a thickly muscled guy.
Takeda himself was a "little" guy but by all accounts extremly strong.

-So if the big guys got "jujutsu" and the little guys got "aiki" and there seems to be little effective difference in the 2 concepts--ie they both seem to work equally well--then why does it matter whom is using what??

Nothing like kick-starting a thread that has laid dorment for 6-7 months to express your personal POV is there.


Edited by cxt (10/07/07 11:03 PM)

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#333312 - 10/07/07 11:16 PM Re: kondo sensei [Re: cxt]
bamboosero Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 18
Loc: NYC, U.S.A.
Heh. My take on Ueshiba is that he hounded Takeda to get all of the goodies. Body size notwithstanding.

Dunno what the dealio was with big guys getting jujutsu, little guys getting aiki. From my training in jujutsu, I can see how small folk could be at a big disadvantage trying to apply joint locks, chokes etc. on larger opponents - they'd have to find a way to bring down the big guy to their height level to apply those techniques, which means having to add on stuff to their attack and thus reducing the efficiency. Not just that, but it's damned hard to get the leverage on a large person's joints to get an effective lock in. Been there, done that. Had it done on me. You get to see the weaknesses as you attempt to do techniques and as training partners of different sizes try to do them on you.

Big guys tend to use muscle a lot, which is anathema to creating effective aiki.

So, Takeda may just have been figuring "Well, the big guy doesn't really need aiki, and it's harder to get him to relax enough to do it anyway."

Just a guess.

Meanwhile, Takeda famously said that Daito-ryu could be taught to women and children. I doubt that he was referring to the jujutsu aspect. He was saying that aiki is the tool for the small and (relatively) weak.

Too, aiki isn't a miracle pill or a magic spell. It's just one component of what were larger martial systems back in the day. A number of koryu systems taught aiki as just one aspect of what might have included sword and other weapons, jujutsu, and other physical skills. Aiki was meant to be a "performance enhancer" that one could apply to already-effective systems of armed and unarmed combat. Alone, those systems were perfectly fine. With aiki added, they become even more powerful.

My two yen.

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