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#333187 - 04/07/07 12:29 PM GSP > Sum of MMA parts
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I was watching UFC All Access and found GSP's training paradigm very interesting.

GSP has no MMA trainer. He trains all of the skill-sets individually, going against the "Camp" mentality.

GSP trains BJJ at a BJJ school, then goes to a Muy Thai/Kickboxing gym and trains with the best there, then goes to a separate boxing gym and trains with the best there, then goes to a wrestling team and trains with the best there. He does sometimes get to Visit Greg Jackson in New Mexico, but not regularly or frequently.

Now we all know of the effectiveness of the team/camp training paradigm. Team Punishment, Miletich, ATT, Quest, etc are all well represented in the UFC, with top calibre fighters. I am just wondering if we will see more of the GSP mentality in younger fighters.

Now we don't really have a fair representative sample to compare the two training methods (camp vs best individual schools) as most fighters want to be part of a camp and GSP is the only one I know of that trains in his particular way.

Both paradigms have their pro's and con's and intuitively make sense.

Which would you choose??


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#333188 - 04/07/07 12:53 PM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: BuDoc]
Leonine Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 191
I think GSP's method is actually quite good. Training in each area individually will force him to become the best he can in those areas, since he does not have the option of switching to stand up if he's overwhelmed on the ground, or taking them down if he can't handle the stand up. This way he won't be allowed to favor an area, so to speak.

I think it has weaknesses in that some qualities of training (such as giving your back in wrestling or not worrying about kicks in boxing, and punching on the ground etc) are just not found in MMA, but it's likely he is aware and can fill those holes in himself.

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#333189 - 04/07/07 03:25 PM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: BuDoc]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I expect it works very well for him. However, I bet he has a couple of training partners who are willing to spar under mma rules with him.

The advantage of training bits separately is that you get to roll with the very best BJJ guys, wrestle the very best wrestlers and box the very best boxers. When you're training in an mma gym, everybody has to compromise their training to fill all the areas- standing, clinch and ground. But when you get to train with someone who trains solely in one discipline, you have to raise your own game up a notch. I expect GSP gets much more difficult rolling sessions with his BJJ class, than he would with any MMA school. Therefore he is fighting guys who are giving him a challenge, and improving.

For most MMA guys, training at an MMA school is fine. It gives you training in all the parts you need and prepares you for the particular demands of the sport. However, GSP is not "most MMA guys," the guy is already so good that sparring with other MMA players is probably not enough of a challenge on his skill sets as training each style individually.


Or at least, that's my take on it.

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#333190 - 04/07/07 03:37 PM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

I expect it works very well for him. However, I bet he has a couple of training partners who are willing to spar under mma rules with him.




George regularly trains with David Loiseau and are sometimes joined by Jonathan Goulet.

I was surprised that they did not also show his weight lifting regiment that he does. I guess they can't show everything. He's very well rounded and dedicated and the formula works for him.
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#333191 - 04/07/07 06:51 PM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: Dereck]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Yes, I can GUARANTEE that GSP does a fair bit of MMA sparring. He works at least at SOME point to put everything back together.

There is NOTHING wrong with isolation training (specific ranges). But at some point, you have to integrate them all back together and I can assure you that he is doing just that.

For example, I heard he's training with Renzo Gracie with his jiu-jitsu. But how much MMA have Renzo and his guys done over the years? Quite a bit! I'd be willing to bet that they are working in the more vale tudo aspects of jiu-jitsu along with the gi stuff that he's doing there.

Again, there's nothing wrong with isolation training.

-John

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#333192 - 04/07/07 07:28 PM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
What John said.

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#333193 - 04/07/07 08:41 PM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: BuDoc]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I think that isolation training is fine, and can work well (it's what I do). Obviously it does for GSP. However, generally speaking, I think the MMA paradigm will give more cohesive results faster.
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#333194 - 04/08/07 01:45 AM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: BuDoc]
Alex89 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
I train at Tristar (the place in UFC ALL ACCESS, where there were the red mats), and at that place there are mixed martial arts classes, it wasn't only a BJJ school (that was my teacher doing BJJ with him). I don't see why he can't just take a course there. He can take wrestling seperately, because he's training with the coach of the national canadian team (my wrestling coach also).

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#333195 - 04/08/07 03:05 AM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: Alex89]
jc4199 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 362
Loc: Pevely, MO U.S.A
You can train each skill on its own but I would think by training in mma you would be more rounded. I train in karate and kickboxing and grappling at the same school but each skill is worked on its own. I know that when I spar mma my karate comes out more then kickboxing. Our karate sparing only allows contact to the upper body and the sides and back of the face. So with out leg kicks and shin block I screwed in mma. I know how to do them I just donít.

Then again I am no where close to seeing the inside of a cage.
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#333196 - 04/08/07 09:40 AM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: jc4199]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
MMA or NHB style as a 'new' martial art is based on this intergration of styles.Training things individual and then hoping they fit wont work for much longer at the top and will gradualy disapear more as most realize its a style in itself to tactical combine all the ranges.
Yes,its already happening and has happened,though it will happen more and more and to a greater degree in the future.

NHB requires different body mechanics and in different stances and so need to use different ways and training methods to do things.For example striking like a boxer or kicking like a Muay Thai guy wont cut it...they have to be changed tacticaly to fit NHB and will become something specific to NHB fighting.

Its not to say doing it individualy wont work..it has and is proven,its just that as it gets more sophisticated or if the fighters wanted to be even better then thats the way to go.

Its all in the little details.
This were someone like Steve Morris is 10 to 20 years ahead of most and I bet others are going this way to and all will eventualy.Or should.

The way to specificaly train for MMA or NHB is being written in our time ,now,as most are borrowing from other ideas yet gradualy having to change things.Weight training for NHB,stand up for NHB,grappling for NHB etc etc.....insteasd of stand up for boxing/Muay thai,grappling for BJJ/wrestling...weight training from wherever.And then winging it together.

Its like on another post someone mentions Chuck Lidell stance being in an unorthodox stance.Yet it works.
So to do what he does it would make sense to also do what he does and then it would become standard and orthodox to anyone wanting to stay on their feet and fight standing up.
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#333197 - 04/08/07 10:35 AM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I don't think "it" will get any more sophisticated. But the FIGHTERS will.

I still believe that to be the best MMA fighter you can be, you have to be a "master" of ONE discipline. Whether it be boxing, muay Thai, wrestling, jits, doesn't matter. Be a master of one and have a passable game within the others.

Koscheck is one example. He's a master of wrestling. His stand-up is ok and his jits is ok. But he excels in wrestling.

In my opinion, wrestling is the base. It doesn't matter HOW good your striking is if you can't stay on your feet. The better fighters are often those with exceptional wresting skills. That doesn't mean they're always wrestling as many are strikers (Chuck Liddell). But it means that they are capable of staying on their feet by out wrestling their opponents.

They didn't get this wrestling skill by doing MMA. They got it by wrestling (isolating the wrestling game).

IMO, NO ONE is going to be a top level MMA fighter without ever having worked his wrestling as a stand-alone (no pun intended) art. Same with BJJ, same with boxing, etc.

And as always, I could be wrong.



-John

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#333198 - 04/09/07 10:40 AM Re: GSP > Sum of MMA parts [Re: JKogas]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I see what you mean good points

Yea its definitly proven to work training things individualy,though it would make sense to already train from the begining with the little changes and tweaks and tactics already there and taken into account,rather than to isolate the training..than tweak it all years later.
Not jack of all trades.Master of all.Well...aim to be.

Also the angles of the body and the planes you work on change.So if you learnt as a boxer in a boxing stance ..then had to widen the stance to take care of sprawling and kicks and then hand posistions to take care of pummeling and tie ups etc...the dynamics change and how to get power in the positions and situations your in, changes.Tactics change

It definitly works well enough,its proven,it seems though that it will be taken further and could get better.
So instead of striking as a boxer..striking as an NHB fighter.
Or wrestling as NHB etc.
I dont know enough about wrestling yet to realy know all the changes there are between pure wrestling and wrestling for NHB.Im pressuming there are some though.
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