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#332407 - 04/03/07 11:51 AM Angry Intro's
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Years ago (the '80's), I attended my 1st "Open" tournament (as opposed to invitational). I'm a Japanese stylist so this was a major culture shock. No sea of white Gi - instead, a rainbow of gi (including stars-n-stripes), kung-fu uniforms, TKD dobok, sweat pants & T-shirt combo's...you name it.

Anyway, as I waited to perform my kata, I heard the competitor shouting @ the 5 judges (all seated in a line in front), "My name is Joe Krotty & I train @ the Maku-do Temple School. My style is Angry Dwarf system & my sifu is Kawi Chaing Schwartz. I would like to perform the Spitting Cobra form. May I continue sir?".

The head judge nods his head & Joe Krotty does his form. I'm thinking, "Why the autobiography? I never seen this done in Japan. You just announce your kata & do it."

Question: Why all the info? Why the request to continue?



Thanks

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#332408 - 04/03/07 01:23 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Hedkikr:

Why the goofy intro's.... ?

To give the judges time to finish their cups of coffee (or whatever is in those huge unmarked thermos)
write down their grocery lists,
finish the Times Crossword silly!!!


Why announce ~my~ (generic) lineage....

Give them time to don their rain gear (ie knowing they yell.. a lot & spit considerably while doing so...) possibly?

Give them the opportunity to ~wake up~, after the long, sleepless night due to allergies/sinus infections (whatever)?


A good and fascinating question, my hypothesis.... stupid, goofy melodrama of the highest order possible. (How tough could it be to figure out who you were wearing a billboard uniform like that, patches of title, rank, school & personal name emblazoned in 5" red sequins like that...)

I know what he/she is ~gonna do~, I just don't want to be forced to watch em do it!

Good question....
Jeff

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#332409 - 04/03/07 02:06 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
While I do not know exactly why that became the standard intro, I can verify that when I did open tourneys in the 1980's and 90's, that was exactly how I was taught to address the judges.

I always thought it was dumb to announce your school and instructor, too. Many judges who may have given you a fair score would hear you're from Master XYZ's school, and think "Oh! I hate that ba$tard! I'm going to low-ball his student's score here! TEE HEE!" Politics.

Like you said, just announce the kata and go.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#332410 - 04/03/07 02:24 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
clmibb Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
Loc: South Texas, US
I've always introduced myself, told what style of MA and my form then ask permission to start. We were told asking permission to start gives the judges time to pay attention to you. If they have a problem (ie the score keeper can't add or someone diverts their attention for some reason) they can ask you to not start yet so they can see the whole form. I'll agree that if someone is sitting in the judges seat they shouldn't be bothered but it happens. But yeah I've never understood why you had to announce your school and your instructor. Why don't they just make the intro a little longer by having them announce the date they started their MA, their current rank, when their next test is and their parent's name? Well hey to each their own, right?

Casey
_________________________
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."- Ronald Reagan


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#332411 - 04/03/07 02:49 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
jliu Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 66
Loc: Montville, NJ, USA
angry dwarf system? sounds scary.

i think some people to try to boost their scores by being more personable...

they way i've always done it is name, style, kata. and in a respectable tone.
_________________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body.

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#332412 - 04/03/07 09:31 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The "laundry list" intros that are used at "open" tournaments is done because the judges usually don't have a clue about what kata is being done or whether it's being done correctly or not. They MIGHT have one judge that knows kata (on a good day) and everybody else is guessing... and when they announce the winner, they have an intro to use ... Winner is Joe Krotty, doing the Short people's form of the Dwarf Ninja Style....

...then the audience can say... "Oh, is that what he was doing???"

I did a weapons form at a tournament a few years ago "formal presentation"... not ONE of the judges had a clue what that was, and none of them knew the kata or whether or not I was doing it correctly.

Like the "Field of Dreams" scenario... "I was from Iowa and they had once heard of Iowa"...

About 2/3 of the kata judges don't know the kata they're judging, so they don't have a clue whether the movements are correct, the kiai is in the right place, or the target areas struck are correct... but, what the hell, if they twirl their stick with blinding speed, scream several times, and jump around looking mean it "looks" like a kata... kinda-sorta...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#332413 - 04/03/07 10:00 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: wristtwister]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I judge in kata competitions.

I have no interest in your name. If I called your name and you stood up, I'm presuming it's you.

I don't care what your school is, who taught you, or who taught him.

I don't care what style you do.

Just stand up, stae your kata, and begin.
_________________________
John L

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#332414 - 04/30/07 01:02 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Yeah I went to a tourny just a couple weeks ago (just to watch), and thought it was funny the way they announced their information. I encountered the exact same thing as you did. They were all serious as if on a mission or something.

I thought it was pretty cheesy myself. Is this like what they require now-adays or what? I'd just rather say my name and kata and start to be honest...

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#332415 - 04/30/07 02:33 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
maybe some "instructors" want credit for medal winners, as a kind of advertisement for the onlookers?? anything more from me when i compete other then the name of the kata, then the kata and i would get kicked out most likely. oh dramatics. but im sure that they are much more "intense" then i.

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#332416 - 04/30/07 04:42 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Hi hedkikr,
I have not seen this done in the UK. Maybe they were a bit taken aback, being the only Angry Dwarfs there and felt the need to justify themselves or they were trying to win empathy points? Either way, this sounds like fun!

Why don't you have a go at doing something similar at you next tournament and let us know the outcome?

"Hello My name is xxxxx and I am a Leo who likes puppies and rainbows and would like to make the world a better place" etc.

Sounds a lot better than:

"Hello My name is xxxxx, I like fires, knives and I am usually electronically tagged" etc..
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#332417 - 05/01/07 12:18 AM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
Aeras Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Colorado
Quote:

"My name is Joe Krotty & I train @ the Maku-do Temple School. My style is Angry Dwarf system & my sifu is Kawi Chaing Schwartz. I would like to perform the Spitting Cobra form. May I continue sir?".




Oh my god i almsot fell over laughing I love it. I really want to learn the angry dwarf system just on principle. "oh your a martial artist? What style do you do?" Deadpan, "Angry Dwarf".

I want to announce myself in this manner everywhere I go now. "Welcome to McDonalds can I take your order?". "Yes My name is Elmer Wrinkly from Master Don Gefunk's School of ass-kickery. Proficient in the flying minja and terrorizing badger styles. Today I would like to perform the jumping can-opener along with the sneaking hamster form. And, also may I have a cheeseburger?"

This is how they sound though, is it not? At the first tournament I judged, when I was a teen, a kid did this. I was so confused by the life story screamed in my face I missed the first half of his form. I love it, thanks for the laugh man I needed that.
_________________________
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashions."- G.K. Chesterton

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#332418 - 05/01/07 07:46 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: Aeras]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Griffy & Aeras...

You guys really cracked me up

You know, it wouldn't be funny if it weren't so true. Wrist is completely right about ignorance of the kata (dance routine).

Wouldn't it be funny to finish your kata & announce that you made a big mistake. Then challenge the judges to point it out & state the correction. Ooooooh...

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#430416 - 10/11/10 02:07 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: GriffyGriff]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I've been away, but had the urge to post after an incident yesterday. This has nothing to do w/ kata, but the Open Tournament mentality.

Years ago (when I competed in a few of these), I also noticed a high degree of disrespect toward the Ref's & Judges during the sparring competition. It was just short of normal for the competitor who failed to score or who had been scored upon, to complain to the Ref/make snide/under-the-breath/sarcastic comments, yell like pre-schoolers/threaten the officials/opponent and on one occasion, get into a fight w/ a member of the opponent's school.

Well, yesterday at Kubota's tournament (always a well-run event), a small group of Kempo guys led by "Master Paul" (as he called himself), became the thugs & azzwholes often seen @ Open Tournaments. Complain, bitch & cry about points, but what really took the cake was when "Master Paul" ws fighting in the Senior division. About 20 seconds after a minor face contact that he initially shrugged off, all of a sudden, he was flopping to the floor, spread eagle as if he's been decked by the Iceman. His student kept saying "Master Paul, why you so silly?" After the medic gave him an OK, he popped to his feet, winked & stuck-out his tongue. As the bout continued, he got angrier & angrier as each of his pushing side-kicks or flippy back-fists weren't scored. His students supported his protestations by berating the Ref & making comments re: favoritism. I was thinking, "Idiot, read the rules."

Then it really got ugly when he lost. As a big intimidating guy, he got in everybody's face, including someone in the stands. I honestly thought that there would be a brawl, but the intervention of the campus security & maybe the number of karate-ka gathering close kept him flapping his jaw & not swinging his fists.

Now, this isn't an indictment of Kempo, but it was 5 yrs ago that this same thing happened (w/ another Kempo group). The chief instructor reprimanded his competitor (an instructor) & apologized, but not before the instructor threw-out a few F-bombs & threats.

Where do these idiots come-off acting w/ such a high degree of disrespect & contempt in some one else's 'house'. How do their mouths & attitudes make-up for their lack of skill? Where does the arrogance come from? I think it was lucky for those punks to remain in jibber-jabber mode rather than throwing blows because I know that every -one was sick of their prolonged diatribes & wanted an excuse to do damage.

Thanks for the opportunity to rant.
_________________________
Ed Ichihara Smith - Shukokai

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#430422 - 10/11/10 07:32 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: GriffyGriff]
Kathryn Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Washington, DC
I have heard tales of the fearsome Angry Dwarf school but never believed it....

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#430429 - 10/12/10 12:48 AM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: Kathryn]
Mark Jordan Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Burbank, California
LOL! This one really cracked me up. I, too, heard of this Angry Dwarf school but never believed it was real. And hedkikr suggestion to "finish your kata & announce that you made a big mistake. Then challenge the judges to point it out & state the correction." This gave me a good laugh. Oooh, I couldn't wait to see the judges reaction.

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#430431 - 10/12/10 01:25 AM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: Mark Jordan]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I apologize for the confusion. The original thread was posted in 2007 & I've been gone for a few years. I didn't want to start a new thread to rant so I hijacked one of my old ones.

Does any one know of this "master paul", possibly from So. Cal. US.
_________________________
Ed Ichihara Smith - Shukokai

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#430440 - 10/13/10 02:12 AM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
ninpopo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/10
Posts: 72
Loc: Africa *drums starts playing i...
Omfw, Angry dwarf wtf hahaha
_________________________
Be the change you wish to see in the world

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#430457 - 10/14/10 07:44 AM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: ninpopo]
Phenix_Rider Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/03/10
Posts: 9
LOL- "Angry Dwarf" reminds me of a few kids at my (new) school. One 9 y/o in particular always tries to be a little tough guy.

We've had tournament practice the last few weeks, for the WTSDA regionals coming up. Never having competed in a tournament, I tend to say as little as possible and keep my forms realistic. I've been "judging" the kids forms, trying to get them to speak up and clean it up. I've never heard so many "with your permission"s and "judges"s in my life. I try to tell them it should only be three sentences, and only loud enough to be heard over the background noise. Your name, your school, your form. "Judges, my name is XXXXX. I train at XXXXX." And then some version of "With your permission, I will perform XXXXX" or, "My form is" or, "Please allow me to present," etc. Poor kids always end up doubling up on sections of the report, and leaving parts out. LOL

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#430461 - 10/14/10 03:25 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: Phenix_Rider]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Not sure if that's the norm in other countries too, but in every kungfu competition I've seen so far, introduction aren't given by the competitor himself. The judges are provided beforehand with a full list of competitors with their names and styles; competitors are then called in turn by their name, with their style being announced in the same way. The competitor stands until a gesture from the judges indicates he can start, once he's done with his form he salutes and waits in the same position for his score to be announced - then salutes again and leaves the mat.

Concerning incompetence on the part of the judges, I've seen it occasionally but to their credit I must say that a friend and I, a couple of years ago, where barred at the last moment from competing as we were told none of the judges present were qualified to evaluate our particular styles (xingyi-quan and baji-quan). It was a rather unpleasant surprise, but I have to salute their honesty.

I have to say, however, that I have indeed seen some judges dragging a competitor's score down in order to settle a score with the said competitor's teacher.
Cheap. frown
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

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#430747 - 10/29/10 06:04 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I know, an older thread but I had to read this, the "angry" part caught my attention especially reading the original post. grin

I've had very limited tournaments experience. The ones I did were Taekwondo based with our circle of schools so really no need to announce anything. And I did attend a huge one with multiple arts, that including sparring and fighting from different arts, forms/katas/patterns and weapons. It was quite interesting to see for the first time. Because of our focus I didn't get to see much especially since it was in a hotel and several large conference rooms were being occupied for different things. Interesting though.

To be honest, I think the reason it was initially done was self serving. It was to make who ever they were "seem" more then what they were especially the sifu. To make them stand out more so then others. To make it "seem" they were more disciplined and more cultured. I personally would rather the person's actions speak louder then their words. From just your post obviously his vocalization stood out more then their performance and would almost guarantee to the judges that it did for them as well.

Was a good chuckle though to read.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#430748 - 10/29/10 06:16 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: hedkikr]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: hedkikr
I've been away, but had the urge to post after an incident yesterday. This has nothing to do w/ kata, but the Open Tournament mentality.

Years ago (when I competed in a few of these), I also noticed a high degree of disrespect toward the Ref's & Judges during the sparring competition. It was just short of normal for the competitor who failed to score or who had been scored upon, to complain to the Ref/make snide/under-the-breath/sarcastic comments, yell like pre-schoolers/threaten the officials/opponent and on one occasion, get into a fight w/ a member of the opponent's school.

Well, yesterday at Kubota's tournament (always a well-run event), a small group of Kempo guys led by "Master Paul" (as he called himself), became the thugs & azzwholes often seen @ Open Tournaments. Complain, bitch & cry about points, but what really took the cake was when "Master Paul" ws fighting in the Senior division. About 20 seconds after a minor face contact that he initially shrugged off, all of a sudden, he was flopping to the floor, spread eagle as if he's been decked by the Iceman. His student kept saying "Master Paul, why you so silly?" After the medic gave him an OK, he popped to his feet, winked & stuck-out his tongue. As the bout continued, he got angrier & angrier as each of his pushing side-kicks or flippy back-fists weren't scored. His students supported his protestations by berating the Ref & making comments re: favoritism. I was thinking, "Idiot, read the rules."

Then it really got ugly when he lost. As a big intimidating guy, he got in everybody's face, including someone in the stands. I honestly thought that there would be a brawl, but the intervention of the campus security & maybe the number of karate-ka gathering close kept him flapping his jaw & not swinging his fists.

Now, this isn't an indictment of Kempo, but it was 5 yrs ago that this same thing happened (w/ another Kempo group). The chief instructor reprimanded his competitor (an instructor) & apologized, but not before the instructor threw-out a few F-bombs & threats.

Where do these idiots come-off acting w/ such a high degree of disrespect & contempt in some one else's 'house'. How do their mouths & attitudes make-up for their lack of skill? Where does the arrogance come from? I think it was lucky for those punks to remain in jibber-jabber mode rather than throwing blows because I know that every -one was sick of their prolonged diatribes & wanted an excuse to do damage.

Thanks for the opportunity to rant.


Unbelievable to say the least. I thought martial arts were suppose to be about respect, honor and discipline but this certainly doesn't reflect that. What a poor example for his students. And to think with the domino effect what they one day may teach others. This has no place in martial arts. Another self serving idiot. Another black eye to martial arts.

As I said above, I have limited experience with tournaments and to be honest I really did not care if I went or not. Most of the stuff to be honest was bogus and people just looking for medals and trophies. To me that is not martial arts that is commercialization. Competing for competing purposes is one thing because I do believe competing can make you better but in these atmospheres I think that is lost. And for the people running it, it is nothing more then making money; again wrong.

Perhaps I'm not the norm thinking training is about making your better and not adorning yourself with medals and trophies.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#430749 - 10/29/10 11:21 PM Re: Angry Intro's [Re: Dereck]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
In my experience there has always been what MA is supposed to be and what it is, and what it is, is based on an under current of violence. We are all happy to get along and perform with respect and honor, as long as we all respect who the Alpha dog is.

It's often subtle, but that tension was always there when I was competing, and it's still there even today.

I've seen most tournaments go just fine, with everyone competing and behaving just fine, like we would hope. But I've also seen plenty of garbage go down as well.

This "Master Paul" story sounds more psychological than anything else. I imagine alone without his entourage he gets run out of the tournament as a statistic. It's just gamesmanship of a sport and why the sport has such limited appeal.

Stick Master Paul in an Octagon, see how it works out for him.
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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