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#331988 - 03/31/07 10:36 PM Clinching and self-defense
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
What do you like best?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 03/31/07 10:35 PM
View the results of this poll.
Striking, what do you like best?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 03/31/07 10:35 PM
View the results of this poll.
Throws/takedowns, what do you like best?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 03/31/07 10:35 PM
View the results of this poll.

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#331989 - 03/31/07 10:38 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
What do you like best?

Throws/takedowns from the clinch
I like the judo makikomi throws and the wrestling metzger best.


Striking, what do you like best?

Dirty boxing


Throws/takedowns, what do you like best?

Wrestling style tie-up
I usually try to pummel for an over-under tie-up. And I use a non-gi grip for the makikomi throws.

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#331990 - 04/01/07 12:34 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
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Loc: North Carolina
Ex Con -

I was going to add my two cents here but you've done that for me. Your post exactly mirrors my own philosophy.


-John

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#331991 - 04/01/07 04:59 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Call me old fashion but I like stand up locks and submissions. As always I'm gonna go for the small limbs, I use any distraction in order to grab hold. Finger locks, wrist locks, and arm bars thats how I do it. Basically anything that can be found in the small circle ju-jutsu handbook. Cuz thats how I roll...

At first I chose dirty boxing, but lets face it, I didn't study the Asian martial arts to leave out all those open hand strikes. I will jab you in the eye, chop you across the throat, palm heel your nose, and fish hook your cheeck if I have to. Bring it son!

What fondling method do I prefer? Well... the one that gets your fairy butt off me the quickest. I don't expect to be doing much hugging and I don't expect you to grab me as well. But if it does turn into one of those "love me tender bouts" I prefer judo sweeps and throws, over your wrestling.

Of course if I had the freakish strength of Matt Hughes or Incredible Hulk, I would pick you up over my head and toss you into a moving vehicle. RawR, deal with it!
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#331992 - 04/01/07 08:59 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

Call me old fashion but I like stand up locks and submissions. As always I'm gonna go for the small limbs, I use any distraction in order to grab hold. Finger locks, wrist locks, and arm bars thats how I do it. Basically anything that can be found in the small circle ju-jutsu handbook. Cuz thats how I roll...





Tek -

I used to like that sort of stuff as well.



-John

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#331993 - 04/01/07 10:33 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I know, we've discussed it before. You say it is a lot easier to control the bigger limbs than it is the small ones correct?
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#331994 - 04/01/07 11:30 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Loc: North Carolina
Thats been MY experience. Not to say that the small joint stuff isn't effective or workable, just that it doesn't work reliably against experienced grapplers.

I've been rolling for some time now. I've rolled with guys who've been experienced in more TMA styles and not so much with BJJ. Many times, these guys (same goes with raw beginners as well) will often panic slightly and start "going with what they know" (read, "foul tactics", hair pulling and everything else -- even though 99 and 9/10s of the time this approach doesn't help them).

Often the first thing they do is try and grab your fingers. I've had this happen so much over the years that I've learned to roll and control position using only my closed fists. Which only means, no small joints to attack. Attacking the wrist of a closed fist doesn't work that well as you might know (with some exceptions; the "top wrist-lock" in catch being one, and that is pretty easily countered).

So experience has just taught me to work for things that are more high percentage against more experienced fighters/grapplers (blues and up). That pretty much leaves out the entire small joint/small circle jits strategy.

Again, much of that can probably work against inexperienced guys / white belts. And perhaps that constitutes most of what one would face in a street fight, etc. But I'm not worried about people who have NO SKILL. I'd be concerned more about folks who can actually fight and present some game.

I'm very skeptical because of the situations in which one might use small joint manipulation:

1. During stand-up when there is no positional control and fists are flying

2. In the clinch when going for SJM is or should be secondary to controlling the body (large joint manipulation)

3. On the ground where you have better control (the ground being an ally) but where against better/more experience grapplers - this will not work and against whom doing so might only invite terrible punishment for even trying.

So I'm left scratching my head about why people place so MUCH emphasis on these things to begin with. But thats just me. To each his own.

For me personally, I enjoy working with folks who attempt such things in training. Its really helped my awareness for such attacks and has shown me how easy they normally are to counter.

I have also worked with guys in the past who try and bite, go for the eyes, pull the hair and attack the groin. They did so because I asked them to (again to develop my awareness of these attacks). And what I discovered over time were again, several things:

1. Against guys who couldn't grapple well (read, didn't work from a functional delivery system), they were as powerless to use these attacks as a baby. Even though they tried, it only ended up getting them in trouble because they had no sense of good posture from which to base their attacks

2. Guys who COULD grapple well, were MUCH more dangerous with biting, eye-gouging, groin attacks and the like - but - still wouldn't often do so because they were more content to play a position based game than an attack-based game. More experienced guys (especially those who are smaller) realize that it's better to keep position than to go for crazy-ass techniques that might only end up putting them right back on the bottom again.

So to make a long story shorter, much of SJM is "ok", but nothing that I'd put a lot of time into. I personally put ZERO time into it because of so many other things that are both easier to execute and are infinitely more "high percentage".

The question becomes, why go the more difficult route when there are easier paths to follow which actually take you to more places, more often, in the end?

But that's just MY opinion. I could be wrong.


-John

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#331995 - 04/01/07 12:53 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Good thread, ExCon. Would you mind linking this to the "Consolidated Poll Thread" on the MA Talk forum?

What do you like best?

While I work striking from the clinch on the bag, I haven't done too much stnd-up sparring lately. So, throws/takedowns from the clinch are mostly what I have been using lately.

Striking, what do you like best?

I voted "other" since I don't really know how to qualify what I do, but I guess dirty boxing could be close, too.

Throws/takedowns, what do you like best?

I find that hip throws, reaps and double legs work most reliably for me now.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#331996 - 04/01/07 01:02 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Hereís my $.02 worth

I mostly use finger and thumb locks for breaking the other guys grip. I never use small joint manipulation as a stand alone technique, only as an aid to other techniques.


When clinching with someone you have basically two choices;

1) Pummel your way to an advantageous hold on your opponent so you can strike, throw etc. or

2) Pummel to a strong defensive tie-up so your opponent canít strike or take you down.

If you choose #1 you will probably have a favorite technique or two that you will try for. Thereíre plenty of techniques to choose from.

Imo if you choose #2 the over-under position is the best tie-up to pummel to. Itís an easy to assume position (most common clinch in mma) and a strong defensive position, hard for someone to strike and take you down from.

Imo for a defensively minded person the metzger is the best throw. The metzger is a great counter to headlocks and bear hugs. The over-under tie and the metzger go together like ham and eggs. And when your partner is drilling the metzger you will be drilling the headlock and bearhug throws/takedowns. So by learning the metzger you will have three throws to use from the over-under position. This is the foundation of my clinch game.

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#331997 - 04/01/07 01:05 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: MattJ]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
From the clinch its all about meeting the pavement hard and with a resounding "Thud".

Striking, I probably should have put Muay Thai after a second thought, though I voted for dirty boxing because i primarily use my hands, but I will kick you, especially after "Thud".

So how do I prefer to get that "thud"?, Well I love to suplex. Belly to belly, belly to back, or just a good ol fashion body slam. I dont know any of the technical terms but I also like to hook my foot around the back of their calve and come down with my weight on them. Randy did it to Tito alot in their fight. Basicall I like a throw or slam that has either alot of elevation, or my weight coming down on top of them, or both.
_________________________
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#331998 - 04/01/07 07:49 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
When clinching with your opponent, do you mostly
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 04/01/07 07:49 PM
View the results of this poll.

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#331999 - 04/01/07 07:53 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'd say I do both. Most of the time I work to attack and take my opponent down. But there are definitely times that I'm using the clinch to stop a takedown as well. More often than not though I'm offensive instead of defensive.

Clinch is about BOTH offense and defense simultaneously in many respects.


-John

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#332000 - 04/01/07 08:27 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
Ditto what JKogas said. Depends on how the opponent is acting or reacting, but predominantly offensive.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#332001 - 04/03/07 04:16 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: MattJ]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
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G'day Guys, (& Girls)

I've answered other for all of the first questions by Ex-con, mainly because I don't have a "preference" as such. I like all applications, but when it comes to self defence ( as opposed to sport) I tend to use what presents.

In the clinch you don't have the grounding torque and distance required for "effective" striking. Effective meaning that you are not going to have significant power or KO power. You will rarely see a KO from the clinch, when they do happen it's because there was a disengagement and distance was created. Short sharp strikes work well such as a quick elbow thrown without "cocking"

While in the clinch the energy being applied will often negate a lot of options, knees for eg aren't readily available until you have control and created a distance. You have to take control or obtain the dominant position, this is where your vertical or standing grappling comes into play. First of all you want to maintain your feet followed closely by controlling the weapons and tools of your opponent. Muay Thai clinch work and Judo randori are great for this. I've had little to do with wrestling But even I can see how it can come into play.

I don't like going to ground in the street so my takedowns, throws etc will be ones that leave me on my feet.

Hey you guys are lucky I could see this was going to be another long post by me, but I have to run off to teach a class. hmmm maybe some clinch work tonight
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332002 - 04/03/07 07:12 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


In the clinch you don't have the grounding torque and distance required for "effective" striking. Effective meaning that you are not going to have significant power or KO power. You will rarely see a KO from the clinch, when they do happen it's because there was a disengagement and distance was created. Short sharp strikes work well such as a quick elbow thrown without "cocking"





I've seen elbows and knees knock guys out from very close range without disengagement. Clinch striking DOES require know-how and timing though. Perhaps that is a problem with many who don't train it effectively or don't know HOW to train it effectively.


Quote:


While in the clinch the energy being applied will often negate a lot of options, knees for eg aren't readily available until you have control and created a distance.





I'd just say again that you might be surprised at how little room one needs to throw an effective knee. Elbows, uppercuts, chin jabs, headbutting, foot stomping, shoulder butting....ALL good strikes, and all can be thrown from very close range as well.


Quote:


You have to take control or obtain the dominant position, this is where your vertical or standing grappling comes into play. First of all you want to maintain your feet followed closely by controlling the weapons and tools of your opponent. Muay Thai clinch work and Judo randori are great for this. I've had little to do with wrestling But even I can see how it can come into play.





Muay Thai, judo, are great. Greco-Roman has to be included with them as well. I don't personally care for a lot of Thai clinch strategies but they can certainly be effective for the right people.


Quote:


I don't like going to ground in the street so my takedowns, throws etc will be ones that leave me on my feet.





I don't like fighting in the street at ALL. So I'm usually headed in the other direction when trouble is brewing. My hell raising days are behind me. That said, I'll do whatever is necessary to go home safe. If that means throwing someone and running great. If it means taking a person down and controlling him, great. Each situation will be different and will dictate the appropriate course of action.


Quote:


Hey you guys are lucky I could see this was going to be another long post by me, but I have to run off to teach a class. hmmm maybe some clinch work tonight





Looking forward to it.


-John

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#332003 - 04/03/07 09:25 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:


Clinch is about BOTH offense and defense simultaneously in many respects.


-John




I agree but Iíll add that the over-under position is considered a neutral position which is hard to attack from. Which is why most people try to pummel to a dominate poison before striking or throwing.

Instead of pummeling to a dominate poison like double under-hooks or a front head-arm lock I prefer to attack right from the over-under position with throws that work well from this tie-up, like the metzger.

I guess Iím a kind of over-under specialist.

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#332004 - 04/03/07 03:24 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
Stormdragon Offline
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Knees to the body from the over-under clinch, knees to the body from double underhooks, elbows to the face and knees to the body from the thai clinch (I dont like that as much as the others though).

Single leg takedowns from hand control.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#332005 - 04/03/07 09:00 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
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G'day John
I'm not saying its not possible , of course it is, but to through full power techniques you must have distance. i guess my use of the word disengage was a bit wrong. You can still be engaged but you do need to create a gap or distance. The knee to the ribs for eg requires room to move that knee, this can easily be created but a push pull and "jaging" both create a distance whilst still engaged. By disengaging I refer more to disengaging from the wrestle, gaining control and dominance and then applying your strategy.

You can't strike as effectively when engaged in the wrestle, you may be able to throw short jabbing like shots but they won't be AS effective as a normal strike ( whatever that is now-a-days), I've also seen these short elbows work wonders but a full elbow works better.

I used to teach Thai for most of the 90's, it's secret is in the clinch control, a knee is rarely thrown without having a hold of your opponent, clinching and kneeing go hand in hand. My point is that you must have control of the clinch to strike effectively. I'd almost guarantee that the KO's from the clinch that you have seen will have come after they had gained control in the clinch, there would have also been some kind of gap created.

You may not need much room for close quarter strikes but you do need room

The clinch is a constant struggle for balance, unless you have gained control your legs are going to be too busy maintaining your balance, only once you have gained control of the clinch, and thus your balance, can you effectively use your legs in striking.

In a clinch I'll Shred, ( c/o Rich Dimitri, Senshido ) It's the easiest and quickest way to gain dominance and control that i have come across, once in the dominant position I'll either continue Shredding or move to another tactic depending on the situation and my goals. i can go straight to the Shred with having to create distance, use strength and even begin it from a disadvantaged position. It will quickly switch the predator-prey mentality and thus gain instant control.

Bare in mind we are talking Self Defence here, A clinch in the street has a hell of a different dynamic then the clinch in the ring or on the mat. What works in the dojo may not work on the tarmac.

oh and it depends
_________________________
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332006 - 04/05/07 12:11 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Hello JKogas

I recall from a pervious conversation that you also like the over-under clinch. I wonder if we might pick up some tips or ideas from one and another. Iíll start by asking you some questions and to be fair Iíll answer for myself as we go.

Question 1; left or right for your over and under hooks? I habitually overhook with my left arm and underhook with my right. I think because I box orthodox, this is the reason for my preference. Btw do you box orthodox or southpaw? That was question 2.

Question 3; generally what foot do you lead with? I understand that the clinch is fluid but I mean as your base stance in the clinch. I generally lead with my right foot (Iím a southpaw in the clinch).

Question 4; do you prefer to pummel to a dominate clinch before throwing or to throw from the over-under? Question 4b; if you prefer pummeling to dominate clinch which one? I prefer to throw from the over-under.

Question 5; what throws/takedowns do you like from the over-under? I like the metzger, uchi mata, sag throw and corkscrew headlock.

Question 6; what throws/takedowns do you like after pummeling out of over-under? I like the fireman and the makikomi throws.

Btw if some of my left/right preferences seem odd to you, it may be because Iím partially ambidextrous.

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#332007 - 04/05/07 06:05 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

In a clinch I'll Shred, ( c/o Rich Dimitri, Senshido )




Hi There
I have looked on the internet and cant realy see what
is meant in by the term of "shred"
Would there be a chance of having it explained?

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#332008 - 04/05/07 06:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
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G'day Jude

I want go into great detail as it will be a bit off topic, but have a read of this link:

http://www.senshido.com/swwd2.html

It will give you a idea of what it's all about
It's also worth having a look on The Senshido forum ( http://senshido.savi.ca/index.php , heres one thread that looks at it
http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=1405
And there are hundreds of others

And there is a bit of a discussion of it on this forum Just use "Shredder" in a search

PS don't make the mistake that many do and assume it's just eye gouging and raking thats only a side effect of it
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

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Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332009 - 04/05/07 08:33 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

I want go into great detail as it will be a bit off topic




Iíd say that it is way off topic!

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#332010 - 04/05/07 10:03 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
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I'm just not a big fan of the "shredder" and don't know if I ever will be. It sort of runs contrary to the "position first" concept of "good" close-range fighting. Just my opinion.

This isn't to say that such a tactic holds no merrit because I believe it does, but, ONLY does so within the context of an already established "clinch game".


-John

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#332011 - 04/05/07 05:02 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


Clinch is about BOTH offense and defense simultaneously in many respects.


-John




I agree but Iíll add that the over-under position is considered a neutral position which is hard to attack from. Which is why most people try to pummel to a dominate poison before striking or throwing.

Instead of pummeling to a dominate poison like double under-hooks or a front head-arm lock I prefer to attack right from the over-under position with throws that work well from this tie-up, like the metzger.

I guess Iím a kind of over-under specialist.




Hi Guys I hope you dont mind if I take part in this conversation.

http://www.themat.com/CoachesCorner/technique/FarsideMetzger/default.php

I have just been looking at the metzger. Could I ask what method's would wrestlers use to drill it?


Edited by jude33 (04/05/07 05:04 PM)

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#332012 - 04/05/07 05:14 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I just drill it out of pummeling. That's really all there is to it.

If you or people you're working with are beginners, just work it into the "swim drill" to get some reps before you work more resistance into the pummeling. Thats one way.

To me, the move is like a "head peel" which is one of my favorite things to do. I like going to that off of underhooks from my opponent.


-John

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#332013 - 04/05/07 08:45 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
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Posts: 599
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Quote:

I'm just not a big fan of the "shredder" and don't know if I ever will be. It sort of runs contrary to the "position first" concept of "good" close-range fighting. Just my opinion.

This isn't to say that such a tactic holds no merrit because I believe it does, but, ONLY does so within the context of an already established "clinch game".


-John




Well we'll agree to disagree then, but personally I don't see how you came to this opinion, it gives you dominance by it's nature and thus position.

Only with in a established clinch game, well it is an extreme close quarter tactic, but I wouldn't say only.

But I'm sick of trying to convince those who don't won't to know about it or who aren't willing to change an existing point of view, that goes for the shredder and RBSD in general. (BTW not saying John or any of you guys are like that). I'll talk till I'm blue in the face, but until someone actually receives a shred (albeit simulated) from someone who actually knows what they're doing they will continue to believe what they want to. Even then the truly pigheaded will still create some reason to doubt.
woops sorry my rant

oh on a more on topic note
What do you guys mean by pummeling??
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

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Drew Guest
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332014 - 04/05/07 11:20 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Well we'll agree to disagree then, but personally I don't see how you came to this opinion






Just common sense. If you don't have control of your arms, how can you "shred"?



Quote:

.. it gives you dominance by it's nature and thus position.





If you are in an inferior position, you're not going to have dominance. That's my point.


Quote:


Only with in a established clinch game, well it is an extreme close quarter tactic, but I wouldn't say only.

But I'm sick of trying to convince those who don't won't to know about it or who aren't willing to change an existing point of view, that goes for the shredder and RBSD in general. (BTW not saying John or any of you guys are like that). I'll talk till I'm blue in the face, but until someone actually receives a shred (albeit simulated) from someone who actually knows what they're doing they will continue to believe what they want to. Even then the truly pigheaded will still create some reason to doubt.
woops sorry my rant





I've been working my clinch for a LONG time bro. The shredder is a close range (read, "clinch" range) tactic. I know a thing or two about close range tactics and I know that I can have every gimmick tool in the book but if I can't wrestle in the clinch, it's all pretty much worthless.

If you don't know how to wrestle in the clinch and attempt to "shred" against someone who does, you'll end up being dumped flat on your head as a result. That would SUCK on asphalt. But don't take my word for it. Get with some really good wrestlers (not just the highschool boys) and try it out yourself.



Quote:


oh on a more on topic note
What do you guys mean by pummeling??




If you don't understand what pummeling is, you really shouldn't be arguing against my points about the clinch perhaps? Seriously, it sort of illustrates that you probably don't have a well established clinch game. It's not surprising though, most folks don't. It's the very reason I've made it my forte'.

I'm just waiting for someone to come shreddin' brother. When that day comes and I'm made helpless like a baby, I'll be the first to come here and admit it.

But while they're shreddin', I'm going to be working to my clinch game. If that means, suplexing a guy back to the stone age, so be it.


-John

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#332015 - 04/06/07 01:43 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

But while they're shreddin', I'm going to be working to my clinch game. If that means, suplexing a guy back to the stone age, so be it.




No you won't, this proves you don't understand the concept. The only thing you will be thinking is "get the F#ck off me".

Quote:

If you don't have control of your arms, how can you "shred"?




spit, bite, head-but, shoulder etc CLAWING (HANDS) IS NOT THE ONLY TOOL USED IN SHREDDING.

now I bet you'll say if you bite me I'll XYZ or break something well yeah if I just bite you, but you will flinch and while you're flinching you won't be breaking anything and by the time you move to defend/attack the bite I'll be onto my next move you will always be playing catch up, and there's nothing you can do about it. You cannot turnoff 40000 yrs of ANS response, and I will be "under you flinch" bombarding your senses with an overwhelming onslaught of stimuli you will go foetal (fetal in the USA) both psychologically and physically

Quote:

I've been working my clinch for a LONG time bro. The shredder is a close range (read, "clinch" range) tactic. I know a thing or two about close range tactics.




I'm sure your wrestling and CQC tactics are superb maybe even superior to mine
Quote:

I know that I can have every gimmick tool in the book but if I can't wrestle in the clinch, it's all pretty much worthless




So how do you explain the 1000's of rape victims who have successfully defended them selves in what could be considered the closest combat range, or at least equivalent to clinch range, without any training what so ever.

I have personally witnessed Olympic level Judokas turned foetal by the Shredder and that was simulated. The Shredder has not yet failed when applied full force in a self defence situation.

Quote:

If you don't understand what pummeling is, you really shouldn't be arguing against my points about the clinch perhaps? Seriously, it sort of illustrates that you probably don't have a well established clinch game. It's not surprising though, most folks don't. It's the very reason I've made it my forte'.




I asked for a definition of an unfamiliar term, in Australia to pummel someone is to repeatedly hit them (usually with the fiet) over and over again. From the context of the use of the word in this thread i figured it add another meaning related to wrestling. I have never training college wresting etc so it is likely that i haven't come across this use of the term. Does this mean I have no clinch game, well thats up to you to decide, but if you want to make assumptions based on semantics then it is your loss, remember what they say about assumption.

I'm sick of having to justify my self, who are more often then not too pig headed to accept anything someone else says. You can disagree with me, but do it from a base of knowledge not an assumption of superiority.

(John Your last implication that i quoted above, did kind of [censored] me off, I found it rather disrespectful)
_________________________
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Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332016 - 04/06/07 03:11 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Hi Guys I hope you dont mind if I take part in this conversation.

http://www.themat.com/CoachesCorner/technique/FarsideMetzger/default.php

I have just been looking at the metzger. Could I ask what method's would wrestlers use to drill it?




Here is a video that shows how to drill the metzger.

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...tioning_metzger

You will notice that the metzger in the video is a different variation to the metzger shown on the Mat page. Coach Welch pulls on the lat, the wrestler in blue from the Mat page pulls on the head. Same throw but a different variation. I use both but I like the Mat version a little better.

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#332017 - 04/06/07 03:22 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Hello again John

I donít know if you missed my pervious post

Quote:

Hello JKogas

I recall from a pervious conversation that you also like the over-under clinch. I wonder if we might pick up some tips or ideas from one and another. Iíll start by asking you some questions and to be fair Iíll answer for myself as we go.

Question 1; left or right for your over and under hooks? I habitually overhook with my left arm and underhook with my right. I think because I box orthodox, this is the reason for my preference. Btw do you box orthodox or southpaw? That was question 2.

Question 3; generally what foot do you lead with? I understand that the clinch is fluid but I mean as your base stance in the clinch. I generally lead with my right foot (Iím a southpaw in the clinch).

Question 4; do you prefer to pummel to a dominate clinch before throwing or to throw from the over-under? Question 4b; if you prefer pummeling to dominate clinch which one? I prefer to throw from the over-under.

Question 5; what throws/takedowns do you like from the over-under? I like the metzger, uchi mata, sag throw and corkscrew headlock.

Question 6; what throws/takedowns do you like after pummeling out of over-under? I like the fireman and the makikomi throws.

Btw if some of my left/right preferences seem odd to you, it may be because Iím partially ambidextrous.




or if you prefer to engage in an argument over something as stupid as this shredder crap.

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#332018 - 04/06/07 04:43 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

.

Here is a video that shows how to drill the metzger.

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...tioning_metzger

You will notice that the metzger in the video is a different variation to the metzger shown on the Mat page. Coach Welch pulls on the lat, the wrestler in blue from the Mat page pulls on the head. Same throw but a different variation. I use both but I like the Mat version a little better.




Thanks Excon. Itís a move me and the guys will have to drill and work on.


J KOGAS
Quote:

I just drill it out of pummeling. That's really all there is to it.

If you or people you're working with are beginners, just work it into the "swim drill" to get some reps before you work more resistance into the pummeling. Thats one way.

To me, the move is like a "head peel" which is one of my favorite things to do. I like going to that off of underhooks from my opponent.


-John




Thanks John


Edited by jude33 (04/06/07 05:06 AM)

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#332019 - 04/06/07 04:49 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539



Quote:

spit, bite, head-but, shoulder etc CLAWING (HANDS) IS NOT THE ONLY TOOL USED IN SHREDDING.
"under you flinch" bombarding your senses with an overwhelming onslaught of stimuli you will go foetal (fetal in the USA) both psychologically and physically





HI drgndrew. Im not wishing to sound as though I am making unjust comments
but what you have described to me seems like normal street fighting tactics.
Im new here but at some time perhaps
We both could discuss the shredder?
Maybe on a new thread if it already hasnt been done?
I would be interested but on this thread Im trying to absorb knowledge on grappling skills. Clinch work.


Quote:

So how do you explain the 1000's of rape victims who have successfully defended them selves in what could be considered the closest combat range, or at least equivalent to clinch range, without any training what so ever.





Because the rapists chosen for the sales gimmick (apart from being other bad descriptive words that I cant use on here) were wimps and couldnít fight? Who knows?
.


Edited by jude33 (04/06/07 05:11 AM)

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#332020 - 04/06/07 05:50 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

.

Here is a video that shows how to drill the metzger.

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...tioning_metzger

You will notice that the metzger in the video is a different variation to the metzger shown on the Mat page. Coach Welch pulls on the lat, the wrestler in blue from the Mat page pulls on the head. Same throw but a different variation. I use both but I like the Mat version a little better.




Thanks Excon. Itís a move me and the guys will have to drill and work on.


J KOGAS
Quote:

I just drill it out of pummeling. That's really all there is to it.

If you or people you're working with are beginners, just work it into the "swim drill" to get some reps before you work more resistance into the pummeling. Thats one way.

To me, the move is like a "head peel" which is one of my favorite things to do. I like going to that off of underhooks from my opponent.


-John




Thanks John





Hi guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JirlR6JJlGw

Is this a variation of the same move except in the defence against a guillotene?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/06/07 05:53 AM)

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#332021 - 04/06/07 06:11 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Hi guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JirlR6JJlGw

Is this a variation of the same move except in the defence against a guillotene?

Jude




Yes itís the metzger. Iíve never seen it used as a defense for the guillotine before. Thatís very cool thanks for posting the link!

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#332022 - 04/06/07 06:36 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Hi guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JirlR6JJlGw

Is this a variation of the same move except in the defence against a guillotine?

Jude




Yes itís the metzger. Iíve never seen it used as a defence for the guillotine before. Thatís very cool thanks for posting the link!





The wrestling site you posted is excellent. We have been working on the technique that is shown on the video(guillotine)
If it would work or not during a full sparr/confrontation I donít know.
If any of my training partner's gets the choke/guillotine on quickly (during a light sparr)then its either hard to get out of or its tap out time. The problem we have is that most of the clinch work has to be self taught.
It seems there are very few (I donít know any )wrestling coaches.
Its a pity really because I can see(although I am not trained in wrestling) the effectiveness of wrestling.
Most of us are strikers.


Edited by jude33 (04/06/07 06:52 AM)

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#332023 - 04/06/07 06:56 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Jude You don't understand the Shredder, those are just tools that are used in shredding I'm not going to get into it all here Why don't you ask over on the Senshido forum, Rich Dimitri founder of senshido and developer of the Shredder will answer any questions you have, That way you can get it from the horses mouth.

As for the rapist being chose for sales gimmick comment, I was referring to the thousands of reported documented cases that involved women with NO TRAINING , that included training in the shredder or any other self defence concept.

I am also quite offended by the implication that I would be involved with any kind marking that chooses rapists, these people are the scum of the earth followed only my pedophiles, I do not use them in marketing and the concept in question is no gimmick it is a proven concept.

I have no Official connection with Senshido but I am a fan of the founder and the concepts, after meeting the man in person I have been reassured that I am not misguided by my belief.

Do some research Guys

Your all talking like clinching is exactly the same in the street as it is on the mat. let me assure you it is a huge difference. The psychological aspects alone will prevent you from using much of what you claim let alone the physiological differences between a life and death struggle and a sparing much. those who think that the mat and the street are the same have never had to fight for their life.

Sporting applications can help for sure but don't imagine for a second it will be the same on the street. How many street fights have you seen that look like a dojo or mat sparing match, don't answer yet spend some time and actually look at the cctv footage that is available on the web. i have viewed many, many gigs of footage and I have seen and been involved in many life altercations. You don't have to believe me but Don't say you had never been told.

Pressure test this stuff and see if it will work in the street ask someone to attack you full force full speed and try to pull these moves off, now ask for them to attack in a multiple attacker situation, with or with out weapons. Good luck

There's nothing wrong with discussing grappling applications but make a distinction between sport and the street. this topic was asking about clinching in the street after all.

But hey what would i know right
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332024 - 04/06/07 09:51 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi There
First off I donít mean to be offensive. I wanted to be on this thread to gain knowledge about grappling/clinch work but not argue about one thing such as the shredder.

Quote:

Jude You don't understand the Shredder, those are just tools that are used in shredding I'm not going to get into it all here Why don't you ask over on the Senshido forum, Rich Dimitri founder of senshido and developer of the Shredder will answer any questions you have, That way you can get it from the horses mouth.



I doubt very much if anybody has recently invented any technique that hasnít been used before. Humans (according to the scientists) have been wandering about this planet for thousands of yearís defending themselves. As for me ( after having a quick look on his site and no disrespect to Rich Dimitri) I first saw stuff like that in street fights while I was growing up.
At some time I would like to see what Rich Dimitri has to say in more detail but at the moment Iím getting knowledge on clinch work and basic wrestling for use in self defence or on the mat.
Quote:


As for the rapist being chose for sales gimmick comment, I was referring to the thousands of reported documented cases that involved women with NO TRAINING , that included training in the shredder or any other self defence concept.
.



You did type rape victims that might be interpretated as he/she succeeded if the defender had fought them off it would have said attempted rape.
ď1000's of rape victimsĒ
So I am not sure where you got your source from . Either way ,
Quote:


I have no Official connection with Senshido but I am a fan of the founder and the concepts, after meeting the man in person I have been reassured that I am not misguided by my belief.
.



Thatís fine. The shredder if it is what I think it is might be of some use but I donít think for one minute it is the end all.
J kogas to me is one clued up guy.
He could be like most people and not inform people, or even charge for what he is doing but he doesnít. People with his knowledge are hard to come by. Its more than likely not for me to say but itís a pity some people donít seem to be able to see that.
He knows his stuff about what he knows yet people seem to be telling him what would or wouldnít work. I think when he says says pummel he means pummel as in wrestling pummel. If people think pummel means something else then might I suggest they do what I have to do ?
Namely look it up on a wrestling site? Just a polite suggestion.

Quote:


Do some research Guys

Your all talking like clinching is exactly the same in the street as it is on the mat. let me assure you it is a huge difference. The psychological aspects alone will prevent you from using much of what you claim let alone the physiological differences between a life and death struggle and a sparing much. those who think that the mat and the street are the same have never had to fight for their life.

Sporting applications can help for sure but don't imagine for a second it will be the same on the street. How many street fights have you seen that look like a dojo or mat sparing match, don't answer yet spend some time and actually look at the cctv footage that is available on the web. I have viewed many, many gigs of footage and I have seen and been involved in many life altercations. You don't have to believe me but Don't say you had never been told.

Pressure test this stuff and see if it will work in the street ask someone to attack you full force full speed and try to pull these moves off, now ask for them to attack in a multiple attacker situation, with or with out weapons. Good luck

There's nothing wrong with discussing grappling applications but make a distinction between sport and the street. this topic was asking about clinching in the street after all.

But hey what would I know right



I have and am always doing research as you put it.
People know nothing of my back ground or any body else on here. At some time but more than likely not in this thread I would like to discuss the ins and outs of the shredder. But as I said on this thread I am trying to gain knowledge. So please donít take this the wrong way but I donít want to discuss shredder techniques any more until a later date. Clinch techniques wrestling etc yes .

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/06/07 10:01 AM)

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#332025 - 04/06/07 10:33 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
jude33 I like your style.

And I agree with what jude33 said about John. Which is why Iíd like John to answer my post, please john?

I just found this site;

http://www.lockflow.com/techniques.php?type=3&sort=tree

And I havenít had a chance to go through it all. It seems to be mostly BBJ but Iíve seen some wrestling too.


Edited by ExCon (04/06/07 10:38 AM)

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#332026 - 04/06/07 10:35 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
First let me say that no disrespect was or is intended. My points are quite valid and actually very easy to prove, IF one has even a SLIGHT bit of common sense. So lets proceed diplomatically and have only truth, common sense and logic as our objectives...


Quote:


No you won't, this proves you don't understand the concept. The only thing you will be thinking is "get the F#ck off me".





What it "proves" is that you've never been truly dominated in the clinch. It proves that you haven't experienced grappling against a competent grappler and specifically, a good wrestler.


Quote:


spit, bite, head-but, shoulder etc CLAWING (HANDS) IS NOT THE ONLY TOOL USED IN SHREDDING.





You can spit all you want. If someone caves because of spitting, they don't deserve any respect as a fighter anyway.

But how does one head butt when you have no leverage? How does one bite when your teeth never come in contact with flesh (head in the pocket)?


Quote:


now I bet you'll say if you bite me I'll XYZ or break something well yeah if I just bite you,





Not at all. What I'm saying is, it's difficult to bite, etc when you never have the opportunity to do so to begin with. I mean, unless you have extended mandibles, you won't have your mouth anywhere NEAR a position from which your teeth with come in contact with flesh. Thats when you're out of position in the clinch.

Why? Because of physics and simple wrestling fundamentals. By that, I mean BASICS that are taught during the first week. If you don't have that game, you're not going to shred. If you DO have that game, shredding is indeed a legitimate tactic. But, that won't be the only tactic that you're "forced" to go to whereas if all you have is the "shredder", you're going to get owned (dumped on your head). Plain and simple but again, don't take my word for it.


Quote:


but you will flinch and while you're flinching you won't be breaking anything and by the time you move to defend/attack the bite I'll be onto my next move you will always be playing catch up, and there's nothing you can do about it. You cannot turnoff 40000 yrs of ANS response, and I will be "under you flinch" bombarding your senses with an overwhelming onslaught of stimuli you will go foetal (fetal in the USA) both psychologically and physically





You just gave me a "sales pitch". Doesn't do damn thing to counter anything I've just said.

Either you have a clinch or you don't. If a guy doesn't have a clinch game, he won't be be biting, clawing or anything else. In fact, HE will be the one playing catch-up.



Quote:


I'm sure your wrestling and CQC tactics are superb maybe even superior to mine





Only one way to find out bro.


Quote:


So how do you explain the 1000's of rape victims who have successfully defended them selves in what could be considered the closest combat range, or at least equivalent to clinch range, without any training what so ever.





What I'd say about that is that most people don't have decent clinch games. Again, that is one HUGE reason to have one. And if it's true that most folks don't have a good clinch game, such tactics will probably work and be somewhat efficient. However, "thousands of rape victims" still got raped didn't they? Giving me a "testimonial" about thousands of victims doesn't do the first thing to sell the concept of the shredder. Again, if one has a great clinch game, fantastic. If not, some "concept" isn't going to ultimately make up for the fact that one doesn't. Such tactics without a base of having "game" is only going to patch holes. I'd rather not have the holes to begin with. See what I'm saying?

Sorry to burst bubbles here but, there is NO shortcut to skill and fighting supremacy. That requires time, blood, sweat and tears.


Quote:

I have personally witnessed Olympic level Judokas turned foetal by the Shredder and that was simulated. The Shredder has not yet failed when applied full force in a self defence situation.





How do you know? Seriously! It sounds like you're giving me a SALES spiel. How COULD you know that it "has never failed in a self-defense situation"? If "thousands of people" have used it, did you poll each one? Of course not. Also, was everyone telling the truth and just not making up BS? Was anyone not making up BS to sell a concept, etc, etc, etc.

Do you sort of see the point? My GOD, people are selling this "product" here as the best thing since the wheel. I apologize if I'm not getting in line to buy it.

But again, this is not taking anything away from the concept. I'm just saying that its a better idea to put the cart BEHIND the horse.


Quote:

I asked for a definition of an unfamiliar term, in Australia to pummel someone is to repeatedly hit them (usually with the fiet) over and over again. From the context of the use of the word in this thread i figured it add another meaning related to wrestling. I have never training college wresting etc so it is likely that i haven't come across this use of the term. Does this mean I have no clinch game, well thats up to you to decide, but if you want to make assumptions based on semantics then it is your loss, remember what they say about assumption.





I understand your point and wasn't trying to be smart-ass. I was just making a point. There really wasn't a better way I could have made that point honestly and wasn't trying to offend.


Quote:

I'm sick of having to justify my self, who are more often then not too pig headed to accept anything someone else says. You can disagree with me, but do it from a base of knowledge not an assumption of superiority.





First of all, you don't HAVE to justify anything here. Secondly, I'm merely providing a counter-point. This counter point is based on a LOT of experience with the clinch. I've WORKED with guys attempting to bite and claw while I clinched them. I know of what I speak. Certainly you don't feel that I'm just sitting here making stuff up and blowing smoke for the sake of "throwing words" onto an internet forum. I have better things to do with my time than that. I'm saying what I am because of experience.

In close where such tactics will come into play, a good clinch position WILL negate an opponent's offense. And that includes the shredder. If you're trying that stuff out of bad position, only one thing is going to happen, and that "ain't a good thing" (if, being dumped on one's head isn't a good thing, and I'm assuming here that it isn't ).

Thus, when in close range, attempting to shred first goes against what one really SHOULD be trying to do, which is working a tie up. THEN once in position, working the shredder becomes much more viable.

Let me ask you a very important question (and this will prove my point). Who would have a better "shredder"? Someone like Randy Couture (former Greco-Roman champion) or say, "Joe Average" from down the block?

Assuming that BOTH people have an understanding of the shredder, which one will be able to use such a tactic to better effect?

Lets begin with answering that question and going from there. That will better provide a foundation to base further dialog on this matter.


Quote:

(John Your last implication that i quoted above, did kind of [censored] me off, I found it rather disrespectful)





Again, I meant no disrespect. Please accept my apology.



-John

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#332027 - 04/06/07 11:45 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA


There is some info on the shredder here:

http://www.fullspeedcomputer.com/mma.html

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1

Maybe the shredder discussion would be better suited there.

EDIT -

Not responding to you, ExCon. Just the reply button I hit.


Edited by MattJ (04/06/07 11:47 AM)
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#332028 - 04/06/07 12:01 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: MattJ]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

EDIT -

Not responding to you, ExCon. Just the reply button I hit.




No problem MattJ, I do that all the time.

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#332029 - 04/06/07 12:17 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1

Maybe the shredder discussion would be better suited there.





Indeed.


-John

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#332030 - 04/06/07 12:28 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

jude33 I like your style.

And I agree with what jude33 said about John. Which is why Iíd like John to answer my post, please john?

I just found this site;

http://www.lockflow.com/techniques.php?type=3&sort=tree

And I havenít had a chance to go through it all. It seems to be mostly BBJ but Iíve seen some wrestling too.




Just had a quick look through that site. Some good guys out there. All in all looks like im going to be very very busy working on my grappling techniques. My brain hurts already. Wait untill I drill some techniques in the gym.
My body will join it.

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#332031 - 04/06/07 04:15 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
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Hi John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JirlR6JJlGw

Could I ask you.
We have been working on this move. Do you think it would work under pressure? As I think I have found out today is it a wrestling move adjusted to use with a guillotene?
Jude

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#332032 - 04/06/07 06:38 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
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Will it work under pressure? Probably so, but you will ultimately be the one to determine that.

One of the better guillotine defenses I have ever seen was on the Mario Sperry volume one series that was released way back in '97-'98. Check into that if you get the chance. If you want an excellent vale tudo series that is still relevant today, you should acquire that series.

I've looked for video clips detailing the move that I'm talking about but haven't found one yet.

The guillotine is (IMO) one of the easier moves to counter. In fact, I can't remember the last time I tapped to a guillotine during live wrestling.

Keeping your neck "bulled" (aka "turtle neck" or whatever you want to call it) will, by itself, prevent a lot of guillotines from being properly applied.


-John

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#332033 - 04/06/07 09:11 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
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Hey guys,

i haven't look at the new posts yet, i'll do that after i post this.

I would like to appologise if my tone has been disrespectful, accusing or similar. You see i have a cold at the moment, a "man cold", and like most big strong men with colds, I turn into a stroppy, grumpy little turd. I Think that has come across in my posts.

I still stand by much of what I have said (if not all), but i think I responded a little emotionally instead of debating. again I'll blame this on the cold and some other stress I'm feeling at the mom. So please take what i've said and tone it down a couple of notches.

John and I have argued before and will continue to argue again, it's not that we disagree that much it's just that we both want to claim the better view of the same bowl of fruit. much of my comments are directed to the majority of others out there not so much the members here. i've been seeing an elitism with in our industry (these are the people the pigheaded references are towards). the problem is I'm finding myself becoming increasingly more cynical and possible seeing this elitism where maybe it does not exist.

Anyway I'm going to take a couple of weeks off from posting and just sit back and listen for a while.

BTW The Shredder is a viable tactic in a clinch in a self defence situation, the fact is that most predators do not train and it is rare that you will need to defend yourself against someone who has "Game" (sorry john I still hate that term). The shredder is easier to perform and can be used by a greater number of people. I teach RBSD and I teach with the Idea that anyone can defend them selves.

To see my point of view on this, ask yourself could my grandmother or 9 yo nephew do this technique, for eg I can't see Granny pummeling for dominance, but I can see her using a behavioural based strategy to initiate an eye gouge and/or throat strike. The fact still stands that it just simply doesn't happen the same on the street as the mat, psychologically, behaviorally, emotionally and so on.

Anyway I'm waffling again, See you in a couple of weeks guys
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#332034 - 04/06/07 11:10 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Hey guys,


I would like to appologise if my tone has been disrespectful, accusing or similar.
Anyway I'm going to take a couple of weeks off from posting and just sit back and listen for a while.





Hi
Your tone doesnt bother me. It might bother the people who run this forum though that is for them to say. Just one thing. In the group I train with we have a couple of Thai boxers. Good Thai boxers and they like myself have had to think about the holes in their training.Eg lack of satisfactory grappling/wrestling skills. Would you say that some people find it hard to admit there is a short fall in their training?.

Quote:


BTW The Shredder is a viable tactic in a clinch in a self defence situation, the fact is that most predators do not train and it is rare that you will need to defend yourself against someone who has "Game" (sorry john I still hate that term). The shredder is easier to perform and can be used by a greater number of people. I teach RBSD and I teach with the Idea that anyone can defend them selves.




Fine but I for one dont realy want to learn that. Others might
Quote:



To see my point of view on this, ask yourself could my grandmother or 9 yo nephew do this technique, for eg I can't see Granny pummeling for dominance, but I can see her using a behavioural based strategy to initiate an eye gouge and/or throat strike. The fact still stands that it just simply doesn't happen the same on the street as the mat, psychologically, behaviorally, emotionally and so on.




.
That is good but from my point of view I am trying to learn new skills.
I dont realy want to discuss the shredder at this moment in time. Others might Your a thai boxer? you will have some clinching skills?


Edited by jude33 (04/06/07 11:13 PM)

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#332035 - 04/06/07 11:14 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Will it work under pressure? Probably so, but you will ultimately be the one to determine that.

One of the better guillotine defenses I have ever seen was on the Mario Sperry volume one series that was released way back in '97-'98. Check into that if you get the chance. If you want an excellent vale tudo series that is still relevant today, you should acquire that series.

I've looked for video clips detailing the move that I'm talking about but haven't found one yet.

The guillotine is (IMO) one of the easier moves to counter. In fact, I can't remember the last time I tapped to a guillotine during live wrestling.

Keeping your neck "bulled" (aka "turtle neck" or whatever you want to call it) will, by itself, prevent a lot of guillotines from being properly applied.


-John




Thanks John

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#332036 - 04/07/07 10:24 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Looking at the polls on this thread most people prefer to;

1 use a wrestling tie-up
2 pummel to dominate clinch
3 throw in the clinch

Iíd like to hear from people what their preferred clinch is and their preferred throw from that clinch.

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#332037 - 04/07/07 11:41 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Looking at the polls on this thread most people prefer to;

1 use a wrestling tie-up
2 pummel to dominate clinch
3 throw in the clinch

Iíd like to hear from people what their preferred clinch is and their preferred throw from that clinch.




Hi
Yes I get the hint to stay on the topic at hand and I shall.
My clinch experience is sadly lacking.Its something I know I have to work on. To be honest Im not sure if I have ever have been in a bonifide wrestling clinch during heavy sparring or if I have had to defend myself.The thai boxing type clinch I have used and had used against me. Sounds sad doesnt it and not much help to the thread. It has been from striking etc more or less to throws/trips etc then ground and pound type work( sometimes knee on the chest )or just pure kicks and stomping.
Extensive ground work grappling is another thing I have tried to avoid a lot.
There it is.


Edited by jude33 (04/07/07 11:49 AM)

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#332038 - 04/07/07 11:42 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
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#332039 - 04/07/07 12:29 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Fletch1]
ExCon Offline
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Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Thanks for the reply jude33

Since youíre predominantly a striker Iíd suggest for the clinching you focus on the over-under position. The two reasons that I favor the over-under are 1) itís a good defensive position (hard for others to strike you or take you down from) and 2) its relatively easy to get into (most common clinch in MMA).

Once a good over-under is achieved your options are many and a lot of choices will come down to personal preference.

If youíre good at the over-under you can throw/takedown your adversary right from the over-under position. However many people prefer to pummel to a dominate clinch which will make throwing your adversary easier.

Double under-hooks is the least dominate of the dominate positions but the easiest dominate poison to get into. Once you have double under-hooks you will have more options for a throw/takedown.

From double under-hooks you can throw right from the chest to chest position or do a slide-by to further improve the advantage of double under-hooks and then throw. I always try for a slide-by and outside sag throw (just my personal preference).




Pummeling from the over-under to double under-hooks

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...oning_pummeling


Outside sag throw

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...ow_outside_step

A slide-by is a slick move which will help you take the outside step for the sag throw. I havenít found a web page showing it however, Iím still looking.

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#332040 - 04/07/07 04:35 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
Stormdragon Offline
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John,
I think the reason you can Shred (at least against an untrained or poorly trained guy) is becuase when you go for 'shredding' I.E. ripping at the face, dirty tactics, covering and compressing their head and face, smothering them, and other such things, they basically go from target-attack mode to focusing on getting your hands and arms and body away from their face. They go from offense to defense and if tghey have bad training or little training then they will do this ineffectively usually and you basically make them panic and freeze up not knowing what to do. However a fairly good wrestling (say a high school, collegiate, or otherwise) level wrestler of most any style will know how to fight your hands and control your position so it will be harder to work and thats when you really need a good clinch/grappling game to handle them.
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#332041 - 04/07/07 06:48 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

John,
I think the reason you can Shred (at least against an untrained or poorly trained guy) is becuase when you go for 'shredding' I.E. ripping at the face, dirty tactics, covering and compressing their head and face, smothering them, and other such things, they basically go from target-attack mode to focusing on getting your hands and arms and body away from their face.





Right. That much is understandable. But thats still being assumptive. Theres no way to know how people are going to react.

Personally, anyone versed in the clinch won't allow that to happen to begin with. When you have no control over your hands, when your head is out of position, it's hard to claw and bite. It's even hard to spit in the face (which is just bullsh*t anyway, imo).


Quote:


They go from offense to defense and if tghey have bad training or little training then they will do this ineffectively usually and you basically make them panic and freeze up not knowing what to do. However a fairly good wrestling (say a high school, collegiate, or otherwise) level wrestler of most any style will know how to fight your hands and control your position so it will be harder to work and thats when you really need a good clinch/grappling game to handle them.





That's been my point the whole time. BASIC wrestling will counter a "shredder" type of attack. I'd rather just have a legitimate game to begin with. But I suppose if people don't have time to devote to standard training, it's probably better than nothing.


-John

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#332042 - 04/07/07 06:58 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

That's been my point the whole time. BASIC wrestling will counter a "shredder" type of attack. I'd rather just have a legitimate game to begin with. But I suppose if people don't have time to devote to standard training, it's probably better than nothing.




Basic clinching can be learned in a few months from a decent trainer.

PUT IN THE TIME

The shredder short cut will get you KILLED against the wrong person.

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#332043 - 04/07/07 08:16 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
Stormdragon Offline
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Well yeah I mean I see it as a basic, quick and easy to learn and natural combative tool thats effective however if you have the opportunity it's best to develope a more refined delivery system. To me it's like what you would learn if yo uare say a soldier with a couple weeks of hand to hand training and you need some quick brutal fighting skills that will work but the more 'game' you have the better it jsut takes longer to be effective with that stuff. It is a good tool but only one tool and a basic one at that but 'shredding' does come in handy to be sure.
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#332044 - 04/07/07 10:51 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
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ok I wasn't going to post for 2 weeks but I just did, sorry it's long.

I have personally witnessed Olympic level Judokas go feotal because of a simulated Shredder, not once but a number of times, this isn't someone at college level in there grappling these guys where part of our Olympic Judo team. On top of this, all held blue belts or above in BJJ. I have also heard first hand many high ranking grapplers of various systems describe how they could not do anything against the Shredder. Not to mention the 100's of second hand accounts but we'll forget them as they aren't as reliable.

All these guys were high level experienced grapplers, they knew that the Shredder was going to be used, it was in a controlled environment with permission by both participants, there was no fear of multiples or weapons and life was not at risk. And it was only a simulated Shred. The Shredder won EVERY TIME

None of the above conditions are available to you on the street, if they are then it is no longer a self defence situation, instead it is a match fight. The street will have a behavioural aspect that will be used by the shredder to "enter", there is ego that can be manipulated and played upon. There is always (except in very rare cases) a pre-fight element which can be used to "set-up" your attacker whilst you hopefully diffuse the situation.

The attacker chose you because he believes you are weaker or an easy target for him (again Self-defence not a Match fight), Unlike the volunteers he won't be expecting it. (which is why Spitting works John, even when you are expecting it it will take a great deal of effort for you to not flinch, and you don't just spit you spit to create a flinch it's not Bullshot) There is always a risk that getting caught up in a grapple will expose you to multiple attackers plus a lot of the clinch techniques already mentioned may very well "get you killed" if used against the wrong person (or a person with wrong kind of mates"

I will swear to you that I am not making any of these claims up (read my sign off) These have been seen with my own eyes. Richard Dimitri is known for is invitation to attack him at his seminars, every seminar he would ask for a volunteer to attack him full force full speed, this was usually accepted by those who were skeptics as to it's claimed effectiveness and were already well experienced martial artists. (I've noted that it is the grapplers who are the greatest disbelievers). With hundreds of challenges beneath his belt he remained undefeated, well, as he puts it, the Shredder remains undefeated.

This is why i dismiss the claim that
Quote:

BASIC wrestling will counter a "shredder" type of attack



We are also not talking a Shredder TYPE attack, we are talking "The Shredder" again everyone assumes the shredder is a series of single clawing type attacks, it goes far deeper then that, clawing is just one tool that is used in shredding.

The Shredder is not the be all and end all (even Rich Dimitri constantly states this) it is just an other piece of the jigsaw. You guys all agree that it is vital to improve your clinch/grappling game and I agree, wouldn't it be logical that you investigate a concept that has been "proven" effective, that has been endorsed and praised by may well known names in the self protection industry, even if only to improve you own game. You are willing to add a head twisting throw to your grappling Game toolbox why not another concept that may just be more effective. The shredder won't take away from your existing game it can only add to it, infact you can do all these clinch techniques within the shredder concept, it is a concept not a list of fixed techniques and the concept can be applied to just about any style or system even a pure grappling style, hell technically you don't need to include gouging biting raking etc if you don't wish the reason they are included in the concept is because they are natural gross-motor techniques that require no little learning do perform and are not lost when stress levels are blown out of the water. It is a compliment to your current knowledge not a limitation, don't be threatened by it be empowered by it

I am a big fan of the Shredder because I have first hand experience with it, I have personally seen it work on experienced grapplers, strikers, fighters, martial artists. i have used it and had it done on me. It is not a gimmick and has been in over 11 years of development The concepts surrounding the Shredder including the behavioural based applications are congruent with my own personal research and experience*, in fact that goes for most (if not all) of the Senshido Concepts.

I have some questions
-From what experience and/or research are you guys basing you claims on. -Have any of you actually been taught the shredder or have experienced it in any way from someone who has been taught it. Or is your idea of the Shredder based on here say and assumption.
-be honest and ask yourself (you don't have to tell me) are you basing your claims on fact or assumption or maybe even ego or is it maybe because thats what my instructor says. (not saying don't believe your instructor, but to truly understand seek the proof for yourself.... some guy named Bruce did just that, you know the rest)

Now I don't think discussing the Shredder in this thread is off topic, it is a proven and effective tactic to use in a clinch self defence situation that is accessible to far more people then the tactics that I have seen described. Don't get me wrong the techniques that have been mentioned are well worth knowing And I fully 100% agree that you must develop your clinch "game" along with every other "game". I wasn't going to go into great detail you guys are the ones that keep bringing it up.

I really should have stuck to my guns and not posted, but maybe this post gives you a different way of looking at it. If you don't like the Shredder thats fine, but give it a proper chance first, to many great Ideas and concepts are ignored because of assumption based judgment instead of empirical based evidence

This is not a challenge but a genuine offer, if any of you are ever in South East Queensland, Australia contact me via the email in my profile ( bushidojos@mysoul.com.au ) for a free demo of the Shredder concept or even better contact a Senshido Affiliate (see link below) and have them demo it for you, virtually every time once its felt first hand the coin drops.
http://www.senshido.com/swwa4.html
or ask on the forum
http://senshido.savi.ca/viewforum.php?f=1

I will now take my 2 week hiatus,

*FYI ( I am currently an undergraduate in a Psychology Degree, I've been puplished 3 times in Australia's Largest MA Mag [Blitz], and have been studying martial arts and self protection for over two decades, Teacher of Muay Thai Is just one of my qualifications. I have worked all aspects of Security from doors and crowd control to VIP protection and armed guarding, I have probably been involved in over 100 physical altercations and probably 10 times more that I diffused with out it going physical, I have had maybe 4 street fights that I wasn't paid to be in and only ever lost the first one at age 12-ish)
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#332045 - 04/07/07 11:12 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

I have personally witnessed Olympic level Judokas go feotal because of a simulated Shredder, not once but a number of times, this isn't someone at college level in there grappling these guys where part of our Olympic Judo team. On top of this, all held blue belts or above in BJJ. I have also heard first hand many high ranking grapplers of various systems describe how they could not do anything against the Shredder.




Iíd like to see Richard Dimitri take the Gracie challenge.
Would you like to see Richard Dimitri take the Gracie challenge?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 04/07/07 11:12 PM
View the results of this poll.

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#332046 - 04/07/07 11:39 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
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The problem is the Gracie challenge has rules and preparation it is a match fight not self defence. It's basically an MMA bout.

If Rich is allowed to Shred full force no hold bared then I'd but my money on Rich. If however it is to the Gracies rules then the Gracies will win. it is not a MMA tactic it is a survival tactic.

Frankly it will prove nothing, like comparing the kicking ability of a TKD'st based on a boxing match...... childish really

Besides I didn't think you guys wanted to discuss the shredder???

oh yeah hiatus,
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#332047 - 04/07/07 11:48 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
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Have fun But keep it in context guys.
the above poll is silly to prove my point would it prove anything to put one of the gracies in the ring with tyson with boxing rules.

I won't respond any more, I really do have to take a break from these forums.
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#332048 - 04/07/07 11:53 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
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Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Frankly it will prove nothing,




Then by that reasoning, this proves nothing.

Quote:

I have personally witnessed Olympic level Judokas go feotal because of a simulated Shredder, not once but a number of times, this isn't someone at college level in there grappling these guys where part of our Olympic Judo team. On top of this, all held blue belts or above in BJJ. I have also heard first hand many high ranking grapplers of various systems describe how they could not do anything against the Shredder.



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#332049 - 04/08/07 01:25 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
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To the contrary one is an invitation to go all out to achieve an end (which was successfully countered by the Shredder) the other is sporting contest ( which does not permit the shredder..

If you're going to argue a point at least keep that point with in context, other wise you will just continue to look like a twit. open your mind and stop allowing you ego to feed you "the Truth".

I challenge you to face someone taught to shred, but you won't seek anyone out will you because you are a keyboard warrior. Hell i have already provided an open invite, not because I'm a smart arse but because I have faith in what I teach. I don't see you John, Jude or anyone else taking me up on this offer. i don't see you inviting a shredder to you to prove it's ineffectiveness.

It's time to get off your high horses and start walking, My challenge to you is to prove me wrong, either personally or via another shredder practitioner not just a read some know it all practitioner either. if it is as crap as you say it shouldn't be too hard to prove me wrong a video camera an 5 minutes is all you need. oh yeah and some actual cahones to put your believes on the line.

Until you get some actual experience this is the last I'l say on the subject. I don't want to waste my time with a keyboard warrior.
who wants to see ExCon test himself against the shredder
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 04/08/07 01:16 AM
View the results of this poll.
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#332050 - 04/08/07 01:39 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203

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#332051 - 04/08/07 08:31 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


If you're going to argue a point at least keep that point with in context, other wise you will just continue to look like a twit. open your mind and stop allowing you ego to feed you "the Truth".

I challenge you to face someone taught to shred, but you won't seek anyone out will you because you are a keyboard warrior. Hell i have already provided an open invite, not because I'm a smart arse but because I have faith in what I teach. I don't see you John, Jude or anyone else taking me up on this offer. i don't see you inviting a shredder to you to prove it's ineffectiveness.


Until you get some actual experience this is the last I'l say on the subject. I don't want to waste my time with a keyboard warrior.




What offer?? Its ok I can guess.
If I promise to discuss the shredder with you at a later date in another thread will you then promise to discuss other techniques and not discuss the shedder untill that time?
I am going to be busy for some time working on wrestling skills as well as the stuff I normaly practice . I will look at the shredder. So do you think we can discuss other things than the shredder?
Just a question before you decide on your promise.( I think you will decide yes)


Are you wanting excon(wrestler trained etc) to compete against "The shredder" or someone(only trained in the shredder) who will be attempting(and more than likely failing) to apply the shredder?
Either way could you give the proposal your utmost attention and more than likely say yes then we can discuss other techniques?

I am using mushin in an attempt to forsee your descision?
Great. I thought a man of your integrety would see the right path.

Welcome to the other techniques discussion


Edited by jude33 (04/08/07 08:51 AM)

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#332052 - 04/08/07 08:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Thanks for the reply jude33

Since youíre predominantly a striker Iíd suggest for the clinching you focus on the over-under position. The two reasons that I favor the over-under are 1) itís a good defensive position (hard for others to strike you or take you down from) and 2) its relatively easy to get into (most common clinch in MMA).

Once a good over-under is achieved your options are many and a lot of choices will come down to personal preference.

If youíre good at the over-under you can throw/takedown your adversary right from the over-under position. However many people prefer to pummel to a dominate clinch which will make throwing your adversary easier.

Double under-hooks is the least dominate of the dominate positions but the easiest dominate poison to get into. Once you have double under-hooks you will have more options for a throw/takedown.

From double under-hooks you can throw right from the chest to chest position or do a slide-by to further improve the advantage of double under-hooks and then throw. I always try for a slide-by and outside sag throw (just my personal preference).




Pummeling from the over-under to double under-hooks

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...oning_pummeling


Outside sag throw

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...ow_outside_step

A slide-by is a slick move which will help you take the outside step for the sag throw. I havenít found a web page showing it however, Iím still looking.




Thanks excon

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#332053 - 04/08/07 09:20 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Thanks excon




You are welcome jude33

Of course Iím giving you my biases. There are lots of good moves and you might like one of them better than one of my favorites. In defense of the sag throw, it works well and is easy to do (not requiring great athleticism just some practice).

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#332054 - 04/08/07 11:15 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
drgndrew --

I wouldn't have a problem testing it. I don't have a problem training or testing myself against anyone really.

However, I'm not going to take time off of my job and drive thousands of miles out of my way to do so.

But let me ask you an important question; If your mother, sister or aunt Gertrude (just making up a name here, any resemblance to persons living or dead is completely unintentional) knew how to apply the shredder, would you in good faith, let me test it against THEM??

If so, would you let me knee them in the face once I bypassed their attempts to shred? (because if it's fair to shred, it's fair for me to play my complete game as well) Would you feel good doing that? That would include MY being able to gouge and all that other garbage as well. Ok with you?

However, if there's anyone near my locale, great. I have no problem testing my game against the "shredder" because in fact, it's NOT really testing my game against another "technique", it's testing my game against another person's game. It's the same-old, same-old. Whoever has the stronger game will have the advantage.

Regardless, I have no problems testing. I have no problems getting owned if in fact I am. But if I'm going to test myself against someone else's technique, it's going to be under MMA rules. That means going until tap out or knock out.

Are you good with that? If so, I'd love to test this technique against YOU (if you're stateside and willing). Otherwise, I wouldn't have a problem testing it with anyone, again, providing we agree to some ground rules and are in same general locale.

My doors are open to people of other styles and practices and always have been. To reiterate, I'm not going to get into "street fights" with people. Training and testing is is another thing. That's how you learn and grow. That's how I've gotten to the point that I have anyway.

If the shredder is ever all that its cracked up to be, I'll be the first to get in line and sign up. I'll change the name of my gym to the "Shredder Gym", lol. (ok, just kidding about that part. Although it DOES sound cool, it would probably not be very good for business).


-John

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#332055 - 04/08/07 11:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
I have two problems with these challenges; 1 the legality of them, this is something that Iíd want a lawyer involved in. 2 suffering grievous bodily harm. Iím not going to risk blindness to prove a point. I would go so far as to wear goggles and if my opponent could remove them that would count as a successful eye gouge and the action would stop, argument settled.

Iíd also only try this with someone I trusted!

This is a forum where the weight of oneís argument is what counts, not name calling and issuing challenges.

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#332056 - 04/08/07 12:42 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Iíd also only try this with someone I trusted!





Exactly! Same here. And I believe having attorneys involved is probably not a bad idea either, lol.


Quote:


This is a forum where the weight of oneís argument is what counts, not name calling and issuing challenges.





Although this doesn't always occur, I agree as well.


Personally speaking, I would have problems challenging someone else to a "street fight". That's why I advocate having ground rules in place, blah, blah, etc., etc.

I don't have any problems testing technique, etc. But there are always going to be inherent problems with this sort of thing.

Still would be fun and I would love to test such a strategy.


-John

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#332057 - 04/08/07 01:54 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Still would be fun and I would love to test such a strategy.




I agree it would be fun. Putting it on youtube would be fun too, sparring with goggles on.

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#332058 - 04/08/07 02:01 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I challenge you to face someone taught to shred, but you won't seek anyone out will you because you are a keyboard warrior. Hell i have already provided an open invite, not because I'm a smart arse but because I have faith in what I teach. I don't see you John, Jude or anyone else taking me up on this offer. i don't see you inviting a shredder to you to prove it's ineffectiveness.






Ahhh the light has come on
I apologise for being in thick mode. You are offering a challenge. One problem is your half way around the world.
The other is I am not intending to prove or disprove anything. When you mean I should face some one who is taught to shred. Then what? Allow them to convince me it works? Then sell me the concept?

You say your mentor asks for people to attack him during a seminar? The he reacts and does what? Gouges their eyes out? Bites them? And people pay for that do they?

Ok.
I think you might perhaps be trying to sell something,? a quick fix? and Im not buying.Or you might perhaps be on a major wind up?. Not sure

As soon as some one starts to lecture me about
how a fight starts, build's up etc then I know they have very little experience of physical self defence and are more than likely lecturers.
Not realy combatents.

Should I want to work on a specific area in self defence/martial arts appliction then (as I shall be doing) I would be attending Jeff Thompsons, Ian "The machine" Freemans or Ian Aberneathy's seminars.
(people who have a proven back ground in this kind of work)

I wouldnt be attending some one's seminars whose marketing skills might be in need of being looked at or who offers challenges.


So as I said if you want to talk about other techniques then fine.

Im not realy into to "conversations" involving high testosterone,, who can bluff who and who is the hardest and who can do what in certain unprovable scenario routines.



Jude.


Edited by jude33 (04/08/07 02:51 PM)

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#332059 - 04/08/07 08:17 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


You say your mentor asks for people to attack him during a seminar? The he reacts and does what? Gouges their eyes out? Bites them? And people pay for that do they?





Excellent point.



-John

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#332060 - 04/08/07 11:16 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Guys please say as you want about me, but leave Rich out of this. He is not my "mentor" he is a friend. for the record, no in these challenges he SIMULATES THE SHREDDER. Of course he doesn't gouge peoples eyes out, what are you stupid, or have you just waited a bit too long to tap out a few too many times.

Interesting that everyone is now looking for ways out of my challenge, suddenly there is fear of being injured or hurt yet a few posts ago everyone was claiming that it wouldn't work. And the idea of involving lawyers, please that is a blatant attempt to wiggle out of testing yourself. I know you guys are in America, but I always thought it was a myth that you all keep a lawyer under the bed.

You don't have the luxury of setting the rules on the street, yet you want to set rules in the challenge. This doesn't make your previous arguments very sound. You all have been arguing and implying how superior your GAME is for self defence yet the moment a hint of a chance to actually prove or test it comes along you start setting rules, you cant do that in a self defence situation. you are teaching people self defence where there is no ref no time limit no rules. It isn't a belt they're fighting for it's their very life, not a trophy, but an opportunity to see their loved ones again. You are dealing with peoples lives. The word Game should not exist in self defence, it is far from a game.

It is obvious that you do not actually believe (truly believe) that what you teach will keep you safe. if you can't confidently accept a controlled challenge without the limitations of rules then how can your students possible expect to be able to defend them selves on the street. Then again, thats the difference between Self Defence an Reality Based Self Defence, one of them is based on ego the other is based on reality.

Sure I'm on the other side of the world to you but, this is a genuine offer, if you know someone in Australia who is willing to see for them selves send them my way ( or i can refer you to the Australian Affiliate if you prefer). I have no intention of disfiguring anyone or permanently injuring someone, i wouldn't be so passionate about peoples self protection if that was the case. I've have demoed the shedder many times with out causing injury, but even a simulated shred works, it's not pleasant though it's very uncomfortable. But you must acknowledge that I simulated it and that if I actually did remove your eye, Peal your skin off, crush you windpipe remove you testes break your ribs etc it would have a much greater effect. A simulation can only give you a taste, but thats all that is needed. the shredder works best at full force but you can use it with in the force continuum, it does take a little more skill in that case.

I'm just offering you a chance to see for your self. If you can beat the shredder then I will make you show me how you did it. If there's a way to beat it then I want to know it and I will fully acknowledge that you showed me (it hasn't happened to me yet, in my experiences).

John I have a mate in Charlotte who i want to try to hook up with sometime soon-ish, is that close enough to hook up with you.
As to whether i would put my hypothetical mum or aunt etc up for this challenge, the answer is a solid and definite NO. They train for self protection not ego, avoidance is still the most effective form of self defence.

I have suggested people contact other Shredders in their area as i am a continent or two away, and understand that distance is an obvious hurdle. It is still up to them to accept or not I can not challenge on anyone else's behalf. if my mum or aunt accepted that challenge then that would be different. You are really asking me if persons like this could still defend themselves in a full on self defence situation and the answer to that is yes.

Sorry if I'm a little all over the place with this post, I really am quite crook at the moment and have been ordered to reduce my stress levels, I thought I could get by with just reading the posts and not posting myself, but I can't . hell i like a good respectful argument it's a form of combat something that has kept me intrigued for most of my life. I really need to avoid being online (not just here but elsewhere too) and get my health under control.

If you wish to comment to me please do it by Email at the addy i supplied earlier,

We are all still friends here, I'm just passionate and grumpy


Edited by drgndrew (04/08/07 11:19 PM)
_________________________
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#332061 - 04/09/07 12:23 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
No rules? How can you properly pressure test without rules?

Ok no rules, Iíll bring a gun. What do you think weíll learn from that? Donít bring a shredder to a gun fight.

A reasonable test would be some shredder people fighting some mma people. The mma people are limited to mma rules and wear goggles secured to their heads. The shredders can shred but must stop as soon as the goggles come off, making them the winner.

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#332062 - 04/09/07 02:46 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
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Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
I rest my case ExCon, you have already admitted defeat you are unwilling to prove you words to me. you don't have rules in the street, but I have never said that it would not be a controlled situation, you can wear goggles if you like as long as you act realistically to someone simulating a skull [censored]. The fact is you are finding excuses to avoid testing yourself, you are backing out of the challenge before even acepting it.

Why because you fear being injured( read as defeated), but wait a second lets look at a quote of yours
Quote:

The shredder short cut will get you KILLED against the wrong person.



Quote:

or if you prefer to engage in an argument over something as stupid as this shredder crap




by these quotes in your own words you are saying that the shredder is crap and useless against you, you have implied a great knowledge, Why then would you need rules other then to even the ground. I am not interested in your ego driven pretend game of sparring,

This is my challenge
You may come at me full force full speed no holds barred with any technique you like. i am fully open to what ever you want here.
as for rules seeing you are to scared to test yourself with out them how about this.
-No weapons,
-tap out permitted and obeyed
-limited protective equipment (this is how I train),
groin guard
mouth guard
eye protection because you are so adamant.
I will forgo these if you wish.( after all I won't have them on the street, and that is where my training is centered at)
- I will simulate my shred, while you are REQUIRED to come at me as hard as you can.
-I will forfeit all rights to claim damages for any injury I obtain as a result of participating in this challenged,
- it is filmed and documented and the losing party will acknowledge publicly on this forum that they where defeated in a challenge by the winner. ie with full disclosure.

Now, no more beating around the bush, we will organise a time and place at a later date. But if said time and place is acceptable to both parties (thats me and you dude)
will you accept this challenge
Yes or No
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332063 - 04/09/07 02:55 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
So whats the prize if I win?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#332064 - 04/09/07 04:37 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Looks like other techniques arent going to get discussed so ok I will go along with this line of argument.
I would like to use my skills with you online and analise where your coming from

Quote:



I rest my case ExCon, you have already admitted defeat you are unwilling to prove you words to me. you don't have rules in the street, but I have never said that it would not be a controlled situation, you can wear goggles if you like as long as you act realistically to someone simulating a skull [censored]. The fact is you are finding excuses to avoid testing yourself, you are backing out of the challenge before even acepting it.




Your attempting to boost your own ego thinking some one has backed down from a (in this case cyber) confrontation (via a keyboard.)
Your describing techniques that some how give you imaginary pleasure. In your own mind.
Your bluffing you know it would never happen.

Quote:


Interesting that everyone is now looking for ways out of my challenge, suddenly there is fear of being injured or hurt yet a few posts ago everyone was claiming that it wouldn't work.




I dont recall any body saying anything it wouldnt work merely they wanted to discuss other techniques.

Quote:



You don't have the luxury of setting the rules on the street, yet you want to set rules in the challenge. This doesn't make your previous arguments very sound. You all have been arguing and implying how superior your GAME is for self defence yet the moment a hint of a chance to actually prove or test it comes along you start setting rules, you cant do that in a self defence situation. you are teaching people self defence where there is no ref no time limit no rules. It isn't a belt they're fighting for it's their very life, not a trophy, but an opportunity to see their loved ones again. You are dealing with peoples lives. The word Game should not exist in self defence, it is far from a game.




Your going some what away from reality and in to bluff and sales pitch and boosting your own ego by insisting you have the answers to everything..

Quote:


It is obvious that you do not actually believe (truly believe) that what you teach will keep you safe. if you can't confidently accept a controlled challenge without the limitations of rules then how can your students possible expect to be able to defend them selves on the street. Then again, thats the difference between Self Defence an Reality Based Self Defence, one of them is based on ego the other is based on reality.




Your argument is based on bluff and knowing what you are saying is unlikely to happen so you can say as you will.
Quote:


Sure I'm on the other side of the world to you but, this is a genuine offer, if you know someone in Australia who is willing to see for them selves send them my way ( or i can refer you to the Australian Affiliate if you prefer). I have no intention of disfiguring anyone or permanently injuring someone, i wouldn't be so passionate about peoples self protection if that was the case.




Your bluffing and trying to establish your dominance and inflating your own ego.
Quote:



I've have demoed the shedder many times with out causing injury, but even a simulated shred works, it's not pleasant though it's very uncomfortable. But you must acknowledge that I simulated it and that if I actually did remove your eye, Peal your skin off, crush you windpipe remove you testes break your ribs etc it would have a much greater effect.




Your bluffing feeding you own low self ego again.

Quote:


A simulation can only give you a taste, but thats all that is needed. the shredder works best at full force but you can use it with in the force continuum, it does take a little more skill in that case.

I'm just offering you a chance to see for your self. If you can beat the shredder then I will make you show me how you did it. If there's a way to beat it then I want to know it and I will fully acknowledge that you showed me (it hasn't happened to me yet, in my experiences).




Sales pitch.

Quote:


John I have a mate in Charlotte who i want to try to hook up with sometime soon-ish, is that close enough to hook up with you.




Bluffing again.
Quote:


As to whether i would put my hypothetical mum or aunt etc up for this challenge, the answer is a solid and definite NO. They train for self protection not ego, avoidance is still the most effective form of self defence.

I have suggested people contact other Shredders in their area as i am a continent or two away, and understand that distance is an obvious hurdle. It is still up to them to accept or not I can not challenge on anyone else's behalf. if my mum or aunt accepted that challenge then that would be different. You are really asking me if persons like this could still defend themselves in a full on self defence situation and the answer to that is yes.




Bluff.
Ego boosting. Attempting to lower others self worth in your eyes by comparing som eone like your aunt who more than likely isnít as physical well trained to people who train.
Quote:


Sorry if I'm a little all over the place with this post, I really am quite crook at the moment and have been ordered to reduce my stress levels, I thought I could get by with just reading the posts and not posting myself, but I can't . hell i like a good respectful argument it's a form of combat something that has kept me intrigued for most of my life. I really need to avoid being online (not just here but elsewhere too) and get my health under control.




This is the trying to exert dominance then acting submissive. The ego is boosted, the sales pitch has been done ,now lets feel sorry for him and be friends
To me what your doing is might be termed a very minute part of the emotional side of self defence. Its called bluff. The pumping up of the human to look intimidating. Acting submissive in order to get the required response.The problem is your behaving as our ancestors would.They would be sitting at the top of a tree in a safe position and bluffing. Your sat behind the safety of a keyboard and doing the same. I think in self defence it has its uses untill some one who doesnt take the bluff comes along. All in all I am reading this as bluff. Your not putting forward any argument your trying to control things from a safe enviroment. If we must discuss the shredder then why havent you discussed it in great detail? Would you like to and can you?
It might work in the correct application but are you the person who can teach this application to people who have experience?
I very much doubt it.How about you prove it from the safety of your keyboard by discussing every detail?
Or you might be on a major wind up and have no combat skills what so ever. Some young kid perhaps?
who knows?
How about we discuss how thai boxing can be used in a self defence? Your take on the techniques? The techniques you teach?


Edited by jude33 (04/09/07 04:47 AM)

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#332065 - 04/09/07 04:56 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Chen Zen]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

So whats the prize if I win?




I doubt very much it it would be any kind of a decent work out for you should it ever get in to a physical sparr. More than likely you would get a better workout from the a pair of focus mitts held by an attractive female.
Should you two ever meet and once the none physical at a distance bluff factor is found not to be working it would be the other part attempting the submissive factor.
I doubt very much if any confrontion in this scenario would get beyind the keyboard bluffing stage.

Any how Im off to train.

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#332066 - 04/09/07 05:03 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Chen Zen]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Hey CZ,

You win the satisfaction of knowing that you have beat the snot out of the Drgn from down under. (Every time I say that I can't help but think penis Ha when I walk it's often drgn too , actually maybe beat isn't the best word either)

This is a genuine offer, but It will only be available for the next 24 hours, this Time tomorrow will be the last opportunity for ExCon or anyone else to say yes, I then will withdraw the open offer and you will need to approach me and ask, if you wish to try at a later date... If you are serious about accepting then do so before this time tomorrow and confirm by e-mail at the same time.

There is one more rule that I forgot to mention , a very important rule, a very Australian rule, regardless of the outcome participants must blow the froth off a couple of cold ones at the local.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332067 - 04/09/07 05:48 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
hey Jude don't make it bad,
Take a sad song and make it better......

Sorry couldn't resist.

Jude If you are certain I am bluffing and your certain I won't honour any challenge, one way to see CALL MY BLUFF.

If your so keen to discuss wrestling why don't you look at the grappling section of these forums, in case you haven't noticed this is a self defence forum not a sporting forum.

As far as EGO goes, please... I have nothing to prove that I haven't already proved many years ago before I realised how dangerous ego can be. I've already survived real life attempts on my life, i have had knives pulled on me and I have had broken bottles, ash trays, glasses, fence posts, chairs and all matter of objects attempted to be planted into my head. So mate don't go spouting of the keyboard warrior bullsh!t with me. I've earned the right to be a little confident in my ability ( I'm more confident in what i teach).

You keep asking me what techniques i would discus for a clinch on the street, I've already told you you twit, Id use and i'd teach the shredder. The reason I haven't discussed thai grappling applications is because this is SELF DEFENCE, Thai is a sport in a self defence situation i wouldn't even worry about thai grappling I have found a simpler easier method that is more accessible to more people. If we where on a sporting forum discussing clinching then I'd happily discuss how I've made Thai grappling work for me, and I'd happily give you tips that will help you integrate other grappling systems into it ( vice versa) system. You asked the Question on a self defence forum so i provided my self defence answer. You are the one who does not wish to investigate it further.

Is it possible that maybe you could have used the word bluff a few more times. The reason I am putting this offer out there is because I'm sick of seeing people spoutoff how good they are or this is and how bad this or that is without having the balls to put their actions where there words are. There is nothing that i haven't said in my posts that i wouldn't be willing to say to the persons face, can you honestly say the same.

Like I said if you think I am full of it then prove it, at least I'm willing to put it on the line, have it filmed and viewed internationally. obviously this challenge isn't going to go down in a matter of days, it will take quite a bit of organizing details that will be settle later. However you only have 24 hours to accept it, and if you do accept it you better not withdrawal from it later like I said this is a genuine offer.

One more thing Jude How do you know I'm not an attractive lady
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

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Drew Guest
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332068 - 04/09/07 05:56 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Quote:

Hey CZ,

You win the satisfaction of knowing that you have beat the snot out of the Drgn from down under




Oh, hell, I was just kinda hopin it was cash.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#332069 - 04/09/07 06:01 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Chen Zen]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Chen I'm a self protection/martial arts instructor, where the hell Am I going to get cash from
_________________________
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Drew Guest
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332070 - 04/09/07 07:43 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
drgndrew your challenge is illegal (and immature); so you can thump your chest all you want, no one is going to take you up on it.

And like Jude said youíre bluffing, in the unlikely event that someone was to show up you would just punk out.

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#332071 - 04/09/07 08:22 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Now your claiming it is illegal, sorry mate it's nothing like illegal. it is a controlled test to which I am inviting you to participate in there is no exchange of money or any other commodity.

If this is illegal then so is any other non compliant drill that you currently practice. if it is illegal then you have encouraged illegal activity by bringing up the gracie challenge. According to you that is an illegal challenge. Now I'm not stupid and I am not beating my chest, if i wanted to do that I wouldn't waste my time do it on a second rate forum with a half hard like you.

You guys are the one's that are coming up with all the excuses. This is the type of crap I'm sick of , this is why i have made this challenge. Idiots like you big note them selves on the internet but as soon as there is a chance to prove what you say you run and hide tail between your legs. This elitist attitude is what I'm fighting against.

If your not one of these guys then prove it. I have my full name, contact details and even the town I live in proudly displayed in my profile. I notice you don't and you need to hide behind an alias. I'm not hiding and I have been open from the start as to my beliefs and purpose.

This is a challenge I am not threatening anyone, I am offering you a chance to prove your words in a controlled environment with rules that you yourself requested. i intend this to be a friendly challenge albeit full-contact full speed. i have even agreed to lower the level of force that i will apply to you whilst giving you full permission (and encouraging you) to go full force no holds barred at me. I don't know what else i can do, I've virtually agreed to your terms yet you still find excuses to avoid answering the question.

not only that you are now resorting to saying i am bluffing and doing this to boost My ego beating my chest you said. Well if that is the case there is a very simple way of proving that about me. Accept the challenge

Dont waste my time any more

ANSWER THE QUESTION
YES orNO?
_________________________
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#332072 - 04/09/07 08:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:


ANSWER THE QUESTION
YES orNO?





I am willing to test this with John and Jude; they both come across as reasonable men without egos. You come across as an insecure adolescent with a huge ego problem, so I wonít test this with you. Not to mention I live on the other side of the world from you.

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#332073 - 04/09/07 08:38 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
how appropriate Excon, John and jude don't know how to shred.

it's possible that I will be states side in the future, You can have anyone you want to be present, as I said I have no intention of causing you any harm I have agreed to your safety requirements, I do however want you to prove to me that you are right and that I am wrong

ANSWER THE QUESTION
A SIMPLE YES OR NO
_________________________
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#332074 - 04/09/07 08:48 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
I can't see why you're hesitating, you have all your safety requirements in place, you will be the one attacking me full force whilst I will be holding back, you have already implied that my defence will not defeat you, and you belief I am full of it.

ANSWER THE QUESTION
A SIMPLE YES OR NO
_________________________
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#332075 - 04/09/07 08:55 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

it's possible that I will be states side in the future,




Great! Weíll talk then.

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#332076 - 04/09/07 08:58 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

. You come across as an insecure adolescent with a huge ego problem, so I wonít test this with you.




I still need a yes or a no.

why am I insecure, i have my full name available, i am putting my body on the line b because I believe in what i teach. I am risking a major blow to my reputation ( oh and my ego) and thus my club, i'm willing to have it shown on youtube win or loose, I cant see how you get that I'm insecure. oh I'm sorry That was a psychosomatic attempt to fictionalize me so that I don't appear so real to you , of course that way you can continue to live you ego fueled misinterpretation of reality and if I'm not a real person then you are justified in pretending my challenge is just chest beating.

Hey if I'm chest beating at least I'm willing to put what I say to the test, instead of believing what i say ,I say what I believe.

YES or NO
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#332077 - 04/09/07 09:02 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
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Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:



Great! Weíll talk then.




Not without a firm answer we wont not to mention I will need to know where we are going to meet so that I can arrange My itinerary etc.

all I want is a YES OR NO

Stop being a woos and answer
YES OR NO?


Edited by drgndrew (04/09/07 09:04 AM)
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#332078 - 04/09/07 11:23 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:



Great! Weíll talk then.




Not without a firm answer we wont not to mention I will need to know where we are going to meet so that I can arrange My itinerary etc.


all I want is a YES OR NO

Stop being a woos and answer
YES OR NO?



I think excon has stated to you what he thinks.


Quote:


how appropriate Excon, John and jude don't know how to shred.





Now your speculating. By the sounds of it I dont think you do. There was an advertisement for a style of kung fu years ago with a photo of a chinese guy doing something to another chinese guy that looked exactly the same as the shreader. Interesting maybe?

What do you think of instead of putting out all these inpracticle challenges you tell me in great detail how you would teach a person your shredder techniques? Then at least if I have a mind to I would know what to expect should ever a meeting happen(although I doubt it)
what do you say yes or no?


Does bluffing the would be attacker come in to your plan?

How do you do that? Maybe send them typed challenges before they enter your domain?


So would you prefer a discussion about your method of teaching the shredder?

would you say
Yes or no?

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (04/10/07 12:31 PM)

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#332079 - 04/09/07 12:21 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Chen Zen]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Hey CZ,

You win the satisfaction of knowing that you have beat the snot out of the Drgn from down under




Oh, hell, I was just kinda hopin it was cash.




Hi Chen

Why are you leaving this forum?
Chen you shouldnt leave. Leave for a few hours then return. It isnt my business what went on but either way "boss" dont leave.

Stay.

Good man I knew you would see the light
I think even our mr Drgn from where ever he comes from would agree on that one
JUDE


Edited by jude33 (04/09/07 12:25 PM)

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#332080 - 04/09/07 06:21 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

...what are you stupid, or have you just waited a bit too long to tap out a few too many times.




LMAO! That's a good one, lol. I'll have to steal that line.



Quote:


Interesting that everyone is now looking for ways out of my challenge





I'm not. Don't include me there. Screw it because what's the worst that can happen, somebody learns something? I mean if that's what we're all training for, then learning something should be sought for in EITHER case.


Quote:


suddenly there is fear of being injured or hurt yet a few posts ago everyone was claiming that it wouldn't work.





I think you have to have safety at the heart of anything that you're doing. Having specific provisions should be of a concern to any able-minded individual. We have to remember that we're not playing hopscotch here. People get injured badly enough and it could have an impact on a person's livelihood.

That said, bring it on.


Quote:


And the idea of involving lawyers, please that is a blatant attempt to wiggle out of testing yourself.




How do you figure that? It's just making sure that no one sues anyone for any damages that may occur. It's not "wiggling" out of anything.


Quote:


I know you guys are in America, but I always thought it was a myth that you all keep a lawyer under the bed.





Lets not bring nationality into it please? That's just asking to get the thread locked down.


One thing about American's, we're not afraid to fight. Never have been, never will be. And we can do it pretty well. You might want to consider that.


Quote:


You don't have the luxury of setting the rules on the street, yet you want to set rules in the challenge.





Oh, so you're just saying we should agree to a flat-out "street fight"?

What would be wrong with MMA type rules? That said, I would exclude NOTHING that would pertain to the shredder! I'm just saying that if a person taps out or the corner throws the towl in, the fight is stopped. Perhaps also having third party to pull the fighters off of each other should the need arise as well. What would be wrong with those things?

Any rules would ONLY be those that could be agreed upon by both sides. I honestly don't see where that would change the nature of the shredder, as obviously people are testing it and training it within the bounds of particular "rules structures".

I'd wager than when you're training and testing it, you're following certain rules yourself, are you not?


Quote:


This doesn't make your previous arguments very sound. You all have been arguing and implying how superior your GAME is for self defence yet the moment a hint of a chance to actually prove or test it comes along you start setting rules, you cant do that in a self defence situation.





I think you're simply missing the point and trying to make it sound like something it isn't.

I'm game for as few rules as possible. Remember, these rules would include my being able to knee you in the face should the opportunity arise. Does that sound like anyone is "pussying out" to you?

Quote:


you are teaching people self defence where there is no ref no time limit no rules.





And YOU are training by rules all the time, are you not? Or, are you putting yourself and your partners in hospitals?

There are ALWAYS rules bro. Its not even an issue. Its common sense.


Quote:


It isn't a belt they're fighting for it's their very life, not a trophy, but an opportunity to see their loved ones again. You are dealing with peoples lives. The word Game should not exist in self defence, it is far from a game.





The word "game" just means "ability". It's slang here. If a person has "game", they have the ability to perform. If you can fight with the shredder, you would thus have "game" with the shredder. See the point.


Quote:


It is obvious that you do not actually believe (truly believe) that what you teach will keep you safe.





No no, I just don't want to get sued when I drop someone on their head and they are paralyzed for life. Is that something you can comprehend?


Quote:


if you can't confidently accept a controlled challenge without the limitations of rules then how can your students possible expect to be able to defend them selves on the street.





What is "control" other than a set of guidelines and rules? How can you have control if you don't have parameters? See the point? There are ALWAYS rules as I've said before bro. Otherwise, people would be killing each other, right? Do you want people locked up for murder? If not, there have to be SOME rules, wouldn't you say?


Quote:

Then again, thats the difference between Self Defence an Reality Based Self Defence, one of them is based on ego the other is based on reality.





Perhaps you could clarify that a bit further for me.


Quote:

Sure I'm on the other side of the world to you but, this is a genuine offer, if you know someone in Australia who is willing to see for them selves send them my way ( or i can refer you to the Australian Affiliate if you prefer). I have no intention of disfiguring anyone or permanently injuring someone, i wouldn't be so passionate about peoples self protection if that was the case. I've have demoed the shedder many times with out causing injury, but even a simulated shred works, it's not pleasant though it's very uncomfortable. But you must acknowledge that I simulated it and that if I actually did remove your eye, Peal your skin off, crush you windpipe remove you testes break your ribs etc it would have a much greater effect. A simulation can only give you a taste, but thats all that is needed. the shredder works best at full force but you can use it with in the force continuum, it does take a little more skill in that case.





Anything caught on video by chance? Youtube is pretty user friendly.


Quote:


I'm just offering you a chance to see for your self. If you can beat the shredder then I will make you show me how you did it.





I'm game enough to try bro.


Quote:


If there's a way to beat it then I want to know it and I will fully acknowledge that you showed me (it hasn't happened to me yet, in my experiences).





Theres a first time for everything.


Quote:


John I have a mate in Charlotte who i want to try to hook up with sometime soon-ish, is that close enough to hook up with you.





Charlotte is VERY close. I'd love it. In fact, I spend a lot of time in Charlotte. I'd love to see what this is all about.


Quote:


As to whether i would put my hypothetical mum or aunt etc up for this challenge, the answer is a solid and definite NO. They train for self protection not ego, avoidance is still the most effective form of self defence.





Why not? Why couldn't THEY demonstrate this technique if it's a powerful as you say it is?


Quote:


I have suggested people contact other Shredders in their area as i am a continent or two away, and understand that distance is an obvious hurdle. It is still up to them to accept or not I can not challenge on anyone else's behalf. if my mum or aunt accepted that challenge then that would be different. You are really asking me if persons like this could still defend themselves in a full on self defence situation and the answer to that is yes.





I understand. What you're doing is promoting people who are actually competent fighters as opposed to being merely "shredders" as the technique itself isn't strong enough to stand on its on.

Well bro, that's all I've been saying to begin with. I've never once said that clawing and biting, etc, weren't good or viable tactics. I'm just saying that without a credible game, such things will not be enough. skill MUST be in place.


Quote:


Sorry if I'm a little all over the place with this post, I really am quite crook at the moment and have been ordered to reduce my stress levels, I thought I could get by with just reading the posts and not posting myself, but I can't . hell i like a good respectful argument it's a form of combat something that has kept me intrigued for most of my life. I really need to avoid being online (not just here but elsewhere too) and get my health under control.

If you wish to comment to me please do it by Email at the addy i supplied earlier,

We are all still friends here, I'm just passionate and grumpy




Happens to the best of us.



-John

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#332081 - 04/09/07 09:22 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Thankyou John, it would be an Honour to accept the challenge with you. I will still need an email to confirm it but.

And yes John I acknowledge that you should not be included amongst those excuse makers and you may exclude yourself from the following comments. We may disagree on the forum But I recognise you as a man of honour.

Why does everyone here assume I am out to have a street fight, I have never once suggested this. if that was my goal why would I even log on when I have pubs with in walking distance. Yes I propose limited rules but I do not propose uncontrolled violence. What do you think i am a common street thug, everyone (except for John) has done nothing but accuse me of being a violence loving thug there is a difference between rules and safety and I have never said at any point that i was not concerned with safety.

MMA rules restrict certain techniques, if I agreed with MMA rule then many of the gross motor street self defence techniques that are so effective for the average person will be illegal, even if simulated. Tapouts aren't rules (at least not that I am referring to) they are safety limitations and a method of cut and dry win loose. My purpose is to make it as realistic as possible, not to injure a fellow human.

John has accepted this challenge in the manner it was intended ( with the odd bit of confusion) he has not responded from an ego based. I have always intended that this challenge be a learning , and testing opportunity for myself and hopefully the participant. Everyone else who has responded to the challenge as a type of threat or macho challenge (ExCon and Jude) have allowed their egos and imagination to create their own reality, it goes to say that they have also done this with with regards to their own ability. Maybe you guys could extend your research (into street defence) beyond matching the latest Hollywood action flick, and start studying the reality of it all.

John I can't accept a challenge on behalf of anyone else which is why I wouldn't put the hypo mum or aunt up against you, plus I wouldn't recommend they do this kind of challenge as an avoidance strategy. Plus they would have been training for self defence. The reality is they would not be attacked with a knee to the face, such an attack on woman is rare though sadly not unheard of. instead of a flat out attack (such as with me) lets take it a step further and run a scenario with them you will have a gaol (simulated rape, bashing mugging whatever) and you will need to replicate the situation as if it was fairdinkum. This means you will need to act like an actual predator and not just attack but set up your attack including behaviour dialogue etc If you honestly believe that the attacker would knee to the face then so be it. but you have to learn to be a good bad guy meaning behave like one etc. I'd then put my money on mum. Remember they will have been training for reality not challenges.

Hypothetically though i would be comfortable for them to take my place IF they wanted to. ( for the record woman make the best shredders and not just because of their fingernails, it's instinctual as well. in the animal kingdom males will fight for territory and dominance it is most often the female who is responsible for the protection of the young etc)

I think We are on the same page with regards the rules, but then again that doesn't surprise me, you have always seen this the way it was intended. instead of a [censored] measuring contest that excon and jude would like to pretend it is.

OH AND JOHN IT"S NOT A TECHNIQUE : IT"S A CONCEPT
it would be more accurate to say that it is a method of technique delivery rather then a technique itself.

I still Hate the use of the term GAME when talking self defence it's just to easy to make cognitive links that may effect learning and or meaning. I do understand what you mean by it i just don't like it.

I think i've covered your points (sorry couldn't be bothered with cut and pasting quotes

Still no definite answer from ConMan ....I mean ExCon. and don't bother jude this is only open to adults.
_________________________
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#332082 - 04/09/07 10:48 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Thank you John, it would be an Honour to accept the challenge with you. I will still need an email to confirm it but.





No problem. You'll have mail by probably by tomorrow (or sooner but it's getting a bit late for me).


Quote:


Why does everyone here assume I am out to have a street fight, I have never once suggested this.





I just think that the limitations of this medium make it (at times) very difficult to understand what each other is saying. It's easy to misconstrue things on internet forums.


Quote:


if that was my goal why would I even log on when I have pubs with in walking distance. Yes I propose limited rules but I do not propose uncontrolled violence. What do you think i am a common street thug, everyone (except for John) has done nothing but accuse me of being a violence loving thug there is a difference between rules and safety and I have never said at any point that i was not concerned with safety.





Right and I agree that safety is an issue. Again, itís just sometimes difficult to convey meaning across the internet. Itís easy for folks to misunderstand each other and we have to proceed here with this in mind.


Quote:


MMA rules restrict certain techniques, if I agreed with MMA rule then many of the gross motor street self defence techniques that are so effective for the average person will be illegal, even if simulated.





But weíre not concerned with athletic commissions in training. MMA rules donít mean a thing outside of the cage or ring. I merely pointed out that rules are in place everywhere, and in every training hall, every where. No one trains without rules, lest weíd all be running through training partners left and right. Not a night would go by where we didnít end up putting someone in the hospital if there werenít rules in training.

Iím not advocating rules against eye gouging and the like or, the ďsimulationsĒ or what-have-you. I was merely attempting to establish what could be seen as ďground rulesĒ for any such challenges, tests or whatever. I mean, surely there has to be limits of some form or another.


Quote:


Tapouts aren't rules (at least not that I am referring to) they are safety limitations and a method of cut and dry win loose. My purpose is to make it as realistic as possible, not to injure a fellow human.





I agree completely and wholeheartedly.


Quote:


John has accepted this challenge in the manner it was intended ( with the odd bit of confusion) he has not responded from an ego based. I have always intended that this challenge be a learning , and testing opportunity for myself and hopefully the participant.






Thatís about the only way I could see becoming so involved.



Quote:

John I can't accept a challenge on behalf of anyone else which is why I wouldn't put the hypo mum or aunt up against you, plus I wouldn't recommend they do this kind of challenge as an avoidance strategy.





I understand. The questions were truly only rhetorical.



Quote:


The reality is they would not be attacked with a knee to the face, such an attack on woman is rare though sadly not unheard of.





I understand. Again I was just asking rhetorical questions. I would never personally harm a woman and in particular, knee her in the face. God forbid I should even be in such a situation where that was warranted to BEGIN with.

However, a knee to the face is a valid and quite devastating tool. But I suppose thatís another topic altogether.


Quote:


Instead of a flat out attack (such as with me) lets take it a step further and run a scenario; with them you will have a goal (simulated rape, bashing mugging whatever) and you will need to replicate the situation as if it was fairdinkum.

This means you will need to act like an actual predator and not just attack but set up your attack including behaviour dialogue etc If you honestly believe that the attacker would knee to the face then so be it.





Ok, now Iím lost. This scenario that youíre laying out here, whatís its purpose? Am I trying to understand how actual assaults are carried out or, the training for self defense? I DO understand that assaults are different from ďsportĒ fights, in that the dynamics are different to some degree. Iím just not clear about what youíre trying to get across to me (call me thick).


Quote:


but you have to learn to be a good bad guy meaning behave like one etc. I'd then put my money on mum. Remember they will have been training for reality not challenges.





Why would I have to learn to be a ďgood, bad guyĒ? For training purposes?? Just trying to get a clear impression of what youíre saying here.

Quote:


Hypothetically though i would be comfortable for them to take my place IF they wanted to. ( for the record woman make the best shredders and not just because of their fingernails, it's instinctual as well. in the animal kingdom males will fight for territory and dominance it is most often the female who is responsible for the protection of the young etc)





Trust me in that I do understand what youíre saying. I understand the notion of fighting all out in a very ďprimalĒ manner. Iím just of the mind that skill is and always will be a tremendous factor that we canít disperse with.


Quote:


I think We are on the same page with regards the rules, but then again that doesn't surprise me, you have always seen this the way it was intended. instead of a [censored] measuring contest that excon and jude would like to pretend it is.





Well I canít speak for them and wonít try out of respect and the like. And I donít know that they mean any disrespect themselves. As I mentioned before, the internet is not the easiest place to get oneís points across. It takes a fair bit of thought and skill. If done rapidly without a lot of thought, itís easy to get fired up over simple misunderstandings.


Quote:


OH AND JOHN IT"S NOT A TECHNIQUE : IT"S A CONCEPT
it would be more accurate to say that it is a method of technique delivery rather then a technique itself.





I completely understand what youíre saying.


Quote:


I still Hate the use of the term GAME when talking self defence it's just to easy to make cognitive links that may effect learning and or meaning. I do understand what you mean by it i just don't like it.





Thatís your prerogative. Everyone has their own ways and even though the meaning is ultimately the same (game meaning, to be ďfunctionalĒ), people are always separated by semantics. It shouldnít be that way, but it is quite often.


Quote:


I think i've covered your points (sorry couldn't be bothered with cut and pasting quotes





Itís all good brother.


-John

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#332083 - 04/09/07 11:04 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Jude- Ive read your posts. Your smart, and edgy, you remind me of me so i like ya

Im not going to publicly discuss what has happened, I dont want to alienate anyone, and really its something that Im trying to move past. But if your here long enough I promise, YOU WILL see me come back. Ive got too many ties here to stay away forever. Until then Id recommend speaking as much as possible with John Kogas, Taison, Cord and Oldman.

Looks like we have an official challenge match. Cant wait to see the results guys. Good luck!
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#332084 - 04/10/07 01:15 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Chen Zen]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Hey John
The introduction of a scenario is so that the ladies would be able to exploit the behavioural aspect of an assault. This side of things is where the tables can be turned this is where the real secret of self defence lies. The shredder happens to utilise this side of things as well.

Hey Chen Whether you stay or go, I'll always make room at the bar for you.
_________________________
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#332085 - 04/10/07 03:26 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Appreciate it Drew. Since your a Self defense teacher, sure you can afford the tab?

Take it easy.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#332086 - 04/10/07 04:33 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Chen Zen]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Appreciate it Drew. Since your a Self defense teacher, sure you can afford the tab?

Take it easy.



I didn't say i was buying
_________________________
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#332087 - 04/10/07 06:53 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Ok 24 hrs is up.

Thankyou to John who has agreed to participate in my challenge. to all those "others" ............ well you know my thoughts maybe you should look at yourself and truly ask "am I " . and shame on you for not having the guts to just come out and say no, instead you had to blow this opportunity out into a circus event, twist it into a penis measuring contest and find what ever reason you could to justify not participating, you even resorted to name calling, saying that my ego was out of control, that i am immature and insecure, that I was beating my chest as you put it.

Those things that you dislike and claim in others are often the exact things which we dislike in ourselves but often refuse to acknowledge. You allowed me to control your and I have shown how ego controls you. This is what happens with most martial artist in the street. A simple no would have ended it, but instead you couldn't allow yourself to backdown and you also didn't have the confidence in your ability to take the challenge, a confidence that you do claim to have in your posting..

John and I may never get to carry out this challenge, logistics is going to make it bloody difficult, as I've mentioned to john of line there is a possibility that I will be in his neck of the woods early next year. it's not a definite but i have another reason to make it happen ( no you idiots to meet and train with John not the compete against him). He has proven himself as a true Bushi in accepting an invitation to test himself and learn, it matters little the outcome the willingness to put himself on the line not for ego but for the possibility of self advancement.

I would have though along the same lines if he had of said no, the answering was the true test. When it came down to it John showed his true confidence and character in answering, even if he had of said No it would have been a conviction in his belief not a an Ego fueled excuse making round a bout of bull [censored].

Sucked in ExCon you failed and Jude blindly followed you, if this was a metaphor of a street altercation you would have let it ( nay made it ) go physical. your Ego won't let you but you could see this as the lesson. But your more likely going to attempt to further take away the true intend of my challenge and further try to discredit me and dismiss me, in some kind of ego repairing attempt to save face. I on the other hand don't care.
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#332088 - 04/10/07 07:45 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
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Perhaps we can slightly alter the subject now and discuss clinch/close-range tactics, self-defense without the bluster and talk of duels, lol




-John

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#332089 - 04/10/07 02:13 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Sucked in ExCon you failed and Jude blindly followed you, if this was a metaphor of a street altercation you would have let it ( nay made it ) go physical. your Ego won't let you but you could see this as the lesson. But your more likely going to attempt to further take away the true intend of my challenge and further try to discredit me and dismiss me, in some kind of ego repairing attempt to save face. I on the other hand don't care.




Well excuse me for being a definite candidate for failing your test.
I am thinking of starting a technique /concept called the "wus". Do you think it will out sell the shredder?
Ok if I say ďwe might consider letting you win this keyboard challenge against us ďpure wussesď? (does that word exist?) would that mean your ego trip would then be semi full- filled?. With that in mind could you then stop your perpetual bluffing and ego tripping ? What about then getting down to some real techniques?.

Agreed? Excellent. Good man I knew your keyboard would see sense

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#332090 - 04/10/07 09:01 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
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I said
Quote:

But your more likely going to attempt to further take away the true intend of my challenge and further try to discredit me and dismiss me, in some kind of ego repairing attempt to save face.




You then replied
Quote:

would that mean your ego trip would then be semi full- filled?. With that in mind could you then stop your perpetual bluffing and ego tripping ?




Thankyou for being so predictable.

And stop Assuming responses for me it really is impolite and quite annoying..
Quote:

Agreed? Excellent. Good man I knew your keyboard would see sense




As far as getting back to discussing the techniques you want to discuss, who's stopping you. You didn't have to respond to my posts and I can't do a thing about what you post. I didn't stop you discussing anything you chose (albeit influenced by your ego) to be combative with me, I didn't have you cornered or any thing similar. All i did was tap into your ego and gave it a little encouragement. Nothing to be ashamed of this is exactly what the bad guy does on the street. The first attack is rarely physical it is usually an attack on the psych ( ego, emotions etc)

This is one lesson I have given you, forget about the challenge etc and see how easy it was for me to engage you in an argument. Everyone has an ego and ego can be traced to be the main reason pub fights and similar street altercations turn physical. As i said the first attack is usually an attack on the psych ( this is not just my opinion but has been stated by many RBSD leaders; Thompson, MacYoung, Dimitri, Laur, Consterdine, just to name a few)

This is one area where the street differs from the dojo, the behavioural aspect may not seem that big of deal to you in passing thought, but it IS one of the major attributes that turn Seasoned Black Belts into windmill fighters. The actual technique you use is almost irrelevant, the way you handle the pre-fight stages of an attack has far more impact on the outcome of the "fight" then what technique you use. THIS IS THE TRUE SECRET TO SELF DEFENCE. And it is the area that is neglected by most Martial Arts.

ExCon asked about tactics in the clinch, I ask how did you get into the clinch in the first place. Why is this person grappling you. This will have more of an impact on your survival then knowing how to perform "The Metzger".

This is a valuable lessen, one that many Martial Artists learn too late. I am providing this to you so that you don't have to learn the hard way, do not think for a second that I am sying not to learn and develop your clinch game (as John calls it), nor am i suggesting you ignore the development of any of the ranges of combat. After all it is the physical portion of the altercation that will cause you physical damage. the pre-fight determines the method and time of initiation of the physical. You don't have to be a 20 year veteran of the Martial Arts to successfully defend yourself but hell yeah it helps.

I will leave the technique discussion up to those who are more experienced or at least more knowledgeable on the subject. If you can put your ego and it's resulting prejudgement of me to the side you may just recognise that I do have something to offer, something that may save your life if you choose to investigate it further, of course if your unable to do that then you can learn nothing from me, my experience and research.

Good luck my friend
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#332091 - 04/10/07 09:29 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
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Guys -

I'm going to act like a MOD here and remind you all to keep things civil. We can disagree respectfully. We agree to disagree. But lets DO try and keep any debate centered around the topic of martial arts and not personal issues between people.

Thanks!


-John

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#332092 - 04/10/07 09:47 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
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good call John

Even better I won't discuss it any more, it has ran it's course now.

sorry for the

And Sorry if i coursed offense with my exercise, I withdraw all insults, and ask we all put this behind us, but still learn from it.

This approach is not my normal approach and I appologise completely and take full responsibility for the degrading of and taking this thread off topic.

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#332093 - 04/10/07 10:00 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
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Its cool brother. People here are passionate about what they believe in. That's not a bad thing. If you aren't passionate about SOMETHING in life, I see little purpose in living it. (Plus it makes the boards here a lot of fun,lol)

That said, as long as we don't get sidetracked by personal attacks, I will allow a lot of stuff on the forums. Nothing wrong with heated exchanges so long as we abide by these rules and stick to subjects relating to martial arts.

As I've said before, it's all good gentlemen.


-John

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#332094 - 04/10/07 10:13 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
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To restart things,

How do you like to use your weight in the clinch?

I have always found success by placing my weight on top of the person. if you imagine a typical thai neck clinch, most people will tend to hang of the opponent. I prefer to put my weight on them, get up on your toes pull the neck in as close as you canto you chest, ideally you will be restrict their breathing by pushing your chest into their face, get up and put your weight on top of their neck pushing down instead of pulling down. you will have a basic neck crank on aswell, Your elbows will restrict their shoulder movement, thus limiting there ability to hit you they may be able to strike but they won' be able to do any damage plus in this clinch you will be able to feel what they are doing and counter by a simple readjustment.

The position your opponent is in discourages any kneeing ( as they will need to support both yours and his entire weight on one leg. he wont be able to apply any effective strikes as he can't torque himself or twist with out risking a tightening of the neck crank, he cant body hold you because you are countering him at the shoulders.

There are things that he can do but I'll leave that up to you to tell me that, bare in mind that the position you will have enables you to feel the movements of your opponent, hopefully enabling you to counter their attempts.

it's not so much the technical position that I go for but rather the concepts ie the use of body weight on top, tactile sensitivity to feel his movements, restricting of movement, and reduced breathing ability or blood flow.

See I can participate.

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#332095 - 04/11/07 12:49 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:




How do you like to use your weight in the clinch?
I have always found success by placing my weight on top of the person. If you imagine a typical Thai neck clinch, most people will tend to hang of the opponent.

See I can participate.






I like that sentence. So to discussing techniques.

From J.KOGAS
Quote:


Perhaps we can slightly alter the subject now and discuss clinch/close-range tactics, self-defense without the bluster and talk of duels, lol





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SczzUAm7NcE&mode=related&search=

Firstly I havent(untill now) realy began to study clinching in to great a depth. Using body weight in a clinch?
Even with the correct use of body weigth in this form of a Thai clinch it would seem that at times both people are open to head butts or right or left hooks. If in a self defence scenario Peter? was attacking me and began to clinch as per the video my head would be well in his face. OK once a person is off balance punches and head butts would be difficult to use. But even so.


Edited by jude33 (04/11/07 01:38 AM)

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#332096 - 04/11/07 03:18 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
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Yes and no jude, you are right that hooks, uppercuts and head-butts can be thrown by the opponent. With the thai clinch there is an awful lot of information available to you that can be read through your forearms. next time you have a TP, put them in the thai clinch and get them to lightly throw a variety of strikes at you. close your eyes and just feel the energy i'll bet you will automatically feel how to negate the strike.

The video doesn't really show the on top idea of using your body weight, the difference is that you are on the guy you have him pulled in to you just as if you are climbing up him. Think about how you would climb a pole you would be incredibly close to it with your body the same idea is in play here your climbing onto him not hanging off of him. by doing this you add to the guys centre of gravity through his own spine. In a sense you anchor him to the ground no more pushing through the ground.

To through effective strikes he has to move the strike up from the ground ( where all strikes are anchored) carrying your weight as well it slows them considerable and you will feel his intend because he has to move your weight to do anything..

I'm being static at the moment peter in the video also showed a bit of Jagging you control the other guys balance using the principle where the head goes..... True thai should be at least 1/3 training in the clinch work and vertical grappling. Thai clinch work (practice) helps you learn how to move your control around in the clinch one minute your adding to his weight the next your making him light on his feet you move his centre of gravity then you pin it in one place. once you have this happening it is relatively easy to counter his energy and add a knee or other strike into into his path.

(Peters vid didn't really show the pinning but pretty well demoed the other points i made..)

Jude Try that clinch drill with someone it's quite remarkable just how much info you are being fed, when you weight him up you amplify the signals.
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#332097 - 04/11/07 06:18 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
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Damn got to this one too late. I'll play with any Shredders out there. I only had one shredder guy who was supposed to ring me back about exchanging ideas in a meet up but never bothered returning call.

As a tactic it is viable, I've used quite a few eye gouges and groin grabs on the Door, but these aren't finishers they are transition techniques for exposing structure and position and getting your opponent into a victim state. On the Door I've also had a few people trying to scratch my eyes out and tear my testicles off. One guy actually had a solid ripping grip on them which hurt like hell, but this made me put the RNC on him even harder and his air supply ran out far before my privates felt like that was going to detach.

In my eyes in order for the Shredder to work the person has to respond in an untrained manner to the stimulus and panic. It is a panic tactic used to induce a panic state. A good trained fighter should not panic under the heat of a live situation. We acclimatise our training to respond skilfully and tactically to a situation. I fight up close and personal because that is where the game takes place. I don't stand there and slug it out because that's where I can get hurt. I want to get in quickly past flailing arms (which help my cause by allowing me to tie you up quicker), assume a dominate position, take your structure and then pound from the safety of superior position. I train at extremely high intensity so that becomes second nature for me to fight at that rate calmly.

As John said foul tactics are cool, but mine are driven by structure and skill. My mindset is totally calm as I know that with my structure in place there is sweet F.A that can hurt me which leaves me free with a total single minded mindset to hunt my opponent(s) to the end of the earth. When I go forwards I'm not looking for eyes or testicles I'm looking to break and destroy anything that moves. That requires extremely intelligent drilling and playing.

I've said it more than a few times here that if you're training at more than 10% in unconditional full contact drills and you are not hospitalising each other, your stuff isn't worth squat. Hurting should be inflicted by design not accident.

You don't see the worlds top professional fighters going full out without seriously damaging each other. These guys can't coz their stuff works and works in very low gears. Most RBSD people do more damage to their clothing than their bodies, besides a few scrapes and bruises what does it all acheive? Clinch up with someone who knows how to elbow, knee, throw, choke and take down and you'll be worrying about a lot more than a finger in the eye or and uninvited tweak of the privates.

As I said, being someone who has been bitten (nearly lost a finger to a coked up punter a few years back), grabbed and wrenched for real, that I'd rather that than be 8 foot in the air going head first into concrete or having a fractured skull coz of some guys elbow.

There are no short cuts for learning how to fight skilful fighters other than learning to be skilful yourself. No if's or butt's. Learning to fight mugs off the street is easy, just requires a good right hand and a bit of bottle. I'm after a bit more than that out of my training.
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#332098 - 04/11/07 06:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


Firstly I havent(untill now) realy began to study clinching in to great a depth. Using body weight in a clinch?
Even with the correct use of body weigth in this form of a Thai clinch it would seem that at times both people are open to head butts or right or left hooks. If in a self defence scenario Peter? was attacking me and began to clinch as per the video my head would be well in his face. OK once a person is off balance punches and head butts would be difficult to use. But even so.





Personally I'm not the biggest fan of moving straight into a Thai clinch and using that as my base from which to attack.

However I should point out that two things are required to make the Thai clinch effective: 1) You "break down" your opponents posture by pulling the head down with your hands or 2) You are moving him about, keeping him off balance. During BOTH tactics, you're not forgetting about own offense. That said, it's still not a favorite tactic of mine because I feel too "squared up" with my opponent. I like to work angles and have more control over the limbs.

Of course the Thai clinch works well for some folks so it just depends on what a person is comfortable with.

Me, I like getting the "over-under position" and working from there. First off, you have to become quite good with that because the over-under is also the "50-50" and everything YOU have, the opponent has as well. So the secret there is to augment the position in your favor and to get to work immediately with your offense. And there is a LOT you can do from that position.

You can work striking and takedowns, you can switch to other positions, (single underhook, body lock, etc). The coolest part is, with skill you can shut down your opponents offense as you launch your own.

Thus is the value of the clinch.


-John

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#332099 - 04/11/07 01:39 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


Firstly I havent(untill now) realy began to study clinching in to great a depth. Using body weight in a clinch?
Even with the correct use of body weigth in this form of a Thai clinch it would seem that at times both people are open to head butts or right or left hooks. If in a self defence scenario Peter? was attacking me and began to clinch as per the video my head would be well in his face. OK once a person is off balance punches and head butts would be difficult to use. But even so.





Personally I'm not the biggest fan of moving straight into a Thai clinch and using that as my base from which to attack.

However I should point out that two things are required to make the Thai clinch effective: 1) You "break down" your opponents posture by pulling the head down with your hands or 2) You are moving him about, keeping him off balance. During BOTH tactics, you're not forgetting about about own offense. That said, it's still not a favorite tactic of mine because I feel too "squared up" with my opponent. I like to work angles and have more control over the limbs.

Of course the Thai clinch works well for some folks so it just depends on what a person is comfortable with.

Me, I like getting the "over-under position" and working from there. First off, you have to become quite good with that because the over-under is also the "50-50" and everything YOU have, the opponent has as well. So the secret there is to augment the position in your favor and to get to work immediately with your offense. And there is a LOT you can do from that position.

You can work striking and takedowns, you can switch to other positions, (single underhook, body lock, etc). The coolest part is, with skill you can shut down your opponents offense as you launch your own.

Thus is the value of the clinch.


-John




Ok John we will work on it.

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#332100 - 04/11/07 02:16 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:



Gavin stated
There are no short cuts for learning how to fight skilful fighters other than learning to be skilful yourself. No if's or butt's. Learning to fight mugs off the street is easy, just requires a good right hand and a bit of bottle. I'm after a bit more than that out of my training.




Yep Gavin agreed.
Quote:


Gavin.

In my eyes in order for the Shredder to work the person has to respond in an untrained manner to the stimulus and panic. It is a panic tactic used to induce a panic state





drgndrew

Or how about the defender trying to poke the eyes
and not quite getting the target will
make the attacker that angry he now has twice the strength and is in a total uncontrollable rage.?
drgndrew your dreaming with your concept.
There are far better techniques than trying to poke some ones eyes when they are in full throttle trying to take my head off as in tonights sparring session.

The last thing that occurs to me when my sparring partner is in full throttle is to poke the eyes. The only thing that did stop my training partner was a kick to his leg.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (04/11/07 05:41 PM)

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#332101 - 04/11/07 05:34 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Gavin]
JKogas Offline
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Gavin -


I just got finished reading your post for the first time. All that I can say is WOW! What a TRULY excellent read that was and I agree completely with what you said.

There is NO shortcut or SUBSTITUTE for skill in legitimate delivery systems.


-John

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#332102 - 04/11/07 10:15 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
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Quote:


drgndrew

Or how about the defender trying to poke the eyes
and not quite getting the target will
make the attacker that angry he now has twice the strength and is in a total uncontrollable rage.?
drgndrew your dreaming with your concept.
There are far better techniques than trying to poke some ones eyes when they are in full throttle trying to take my head off as in tonights sparring session.

The last thing that occurs to me when my sparring partner is in full throttle is to poke the eyes. The only thing that did stop my training partner was a kick to his leg.






You make me laugh Jude, earlier on in this thread you ask " what is this Shredder" now you're an expert on it. Grow up and stop pretending you can match it with the bib boys. you want to learn then show some respect

Nothing that you guys have said is entirely wrong except for a few assumptions you have made.
-Poking someone in the eye, grabbing the nuts etc is not shredding, DO NOT ASSUME THAT IF YOU ATTACK THE EYES YOU ARE SHREDDING
-by your own admissions no one has ever been shredded here, yet you are able to, with out doubt, say how you or another trained fighter will react to it. how is this possible if you have never actually felt it. please, Make your comments on actual experience and not imagined.
-the shredder is a concept not a technique. (metaphor- it is the reason why a plane can fly not the plane itself)
- the shredder is not a short cut, it has been in development for more then 11 years, if you can GENERALLY PROVE THE CONCEPT OF THE SHREDDER IS FLOORED IN ANY WAY THEN CONTACT RIC DIMITRI AND LET HIM KNOW. it is constantly evolving, if something doesn't work in reality in Rich's system (Senshido) then he will drop it or look at ways to make it work.
- No one has said that you don't need to develop all your ranges, "the shredder is just another piece of the jigsaw" ( quote R. Dimitri) an understanding of grappling will enhance your shredding and an understanding of the shredder will compliment your grappling.
- the shredder is an extreme close quarter tactic, you can not shred if you have not made contact.
- sparing and a street defence situation are interchangeable.
_ I'm sure their are more but I'm getting sick of trying to explain something that most of you have closed your mind too.

I'm not some yellow belt that has a crush on my instructor, I have studied a great deal of different martial arts, I'm not saying I'm great ( I am but i'm not saying that ), everything I have said is based on actual experience not extrapolation, speculation or imagination. I have seen it first hand, felt it first hand and have personally witnessed very experienced grapplers face the shredder with a consistent result. hell i even offered myself as a guinea pig to prove my claim and give you guys an opportunity to prove yours (only 1 person was open minded enough to accept, most made excuses)

It is clear that I am not respected on the forum, people here, in general, are simply close minded to believe that i have anything to offer. i am not going to waste my time with these kind o people, nor am i going to waste my hard earned knowledge and my decades of experience and learning with you . I was hoping that this forum would be a little different then the majority of self defence forums out there. just like the majority of forums people here are more concerned with proving people wrong than learning and developing their Self Protection. most of this proof isn't even based on fact or experience, but rather heresy and imagination.

There are some individuals here that that don' deserve to be lumped in to the above, they know who they are. To the rest of you Shame, you don't deserve the right to call yourself Martial artists.

I will be very reluctant to share my knowledge and ideas here in the future, you may not think so and you'll probably imply that i am up myself, but i believe i am worth more then that. If you think I do have some thing to offer then you will need to contact me off forum.


P.S. Gavin If you shoot me an email ( in my profile ) I'll provide you with the contact details of a Senshido Affiliate in the UK. Richard Dimitri will also be running a few seminars on the weekend of OCTOBER 6th-7th. Check out this thread on the Senshido Forum for more details. this will be an opportunity for anyone in the UK to find out what its all about straight from the horses mouth.
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#332103 - 04/11/07 11:17 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


Nothing that you guys have said is entirely wrong except for a few assumptions you have made.
-Poking someone in the eye, grabbing the nuts etc is not shredding, DO NOT ASSUME THAT IF YOU ATTACK THE EYES YOU ARE SHREDDING





Question: Is eye gouging in fact a part of the shredder? I would have to assume it is. Is it also, biting and other foul tactics?


Quote:

- the shredder is not a short cut, it has been in development for more then 11 years, if you can GENERALLY PROVE THE CONCEPT OF THE SHREDDER IS FLOORED IN ANY WAY THEN CONTACT RIC DIMITRI AND LET HIM KNOW.
it is constantly evolving, if something doesn't work in reality in Rich's system (Senshido) then he will drop it or look at ways to make it work.





I think what is meant by ďshort-cutĒ is the notion of spending more time on developing foul tactics and spending less time on sparring, wrestling, etc. Those skillsets have to be in place obviously or, no matter HOW great one is with the shredder, you wonít be able to even USE it before being completely throttled.


Quote:


- No one has said that you don't need to develop all your ranges, "the shredder is just another piece of the jigsaw" ( quote R. Dimitri) an understanding of grappling will enhance your shredding and an understanding of the shredder will compliment your grappling.





That much is agreeable with. Its what Iíve been saying. Of course, to a person with well developed delivery systems, putting in the foul tactics is an easy process. It isnít the other way around. Thatís been MY point.


Quote:


- the shredder is an extreme close quarter tactic, you can not shred if you have not made contact.
- sparing and a street defence situation are interchangeable.
_ I'm sure their are more but I'm getting sick of trying to explain something that most of you have closed your mind too.





Perhaps the problem lies with the ďproductĒ. It sounds as if in the middle of a fight, a person is going to pull out a cheese grater, lol. Of course Iím just kidding here, but seriously, the ďnameĒ is the dividing point I believe. Couldnít it be mentioned with the actual tactics? That so far appears pretty vague whereas, going into a personís eyes, grabbing the hair, biting, etc are seem fairly concrete and obvious.

And certainly those tactics are indeed viable ones - to a point. No one would argue that point I believe.


Quote:


It is clear that I am not respected on the forum, people here, in general, are simply close minded to believe that i have anything to offer. i am not going to waste my time with these kind o people, nor am i going to waste my hard earned knowledge and my decades of experience and learning with you . I was hoping that this forum would be a little different then the majority of self defence forums out there. just like the majority of forums people here are more concerned with proving people wrong than learning and developing their Self Protection. most of this proof isn't even based on fact or experience, but rather heresy and imagination.






I should share MY experience here with you. When I first came on this forum, NO ONE wanted to really hear what I was saying. I was in CONSTANT argument with just about everyone here. Was I respected? I believe so. Youíre not respected for your message so much at times as for your ability to stand firm for what you believe.

Donít let those who disagree discourage or dissuade you because I didnít. I just kept firing away and now 99% of this forum agrees with what my message here is. And that message has NOT changed one bit from the time I joined here. Perhaps the delivery has to some degree, but the message certainly hasnít.

I see no reason for you to back away from the forums because people either disagree or donít understand. Itís YOUR job to change that or, forge on regardless.


Quote:


There are some individuals here that that don' deserve to be lumped in to the above, they know who they are. To the rest of you Shame, you don't deserve the right to call yourself Martial artists.





Forget about it. Just continue on. Again, I believe the problem lies with the fact that the ďShredderď(T.M.) sounds like something sold on the Home Shopping Network. In short, it sounds gimmicky. It may not be in the slightest. But, without fully explaining the concept or, how you go ABOUT the using the concept, people have nothing to reference it to. Itís vague and sounds like something a girl would do to another girl in a fight. (We call those ďcat fightsĒ ya know, hair pulling, clawing, flailing about, etc.)


Quote:


I will be very reluctant to share my knowledge and ideas here in the future, you may not think so and you'll probably imply that i am up myself, but i believe i am worth more then that. If you think I do have some thing to offer then you will need to contact me off forum.





I would only encourage you to think about what youíre saying and how its coming across. And I mean no disrespect but youíre running from people who are merely being skeptical and critical. You wouldnít run in a ďstreet fightĒ would you? Yet when people are throwing ďhard wordsĒ at you, you decide to back off? Howís that work?

Donít take what Iím saying wrong here. Iím just trying to get you to look at it from another perspective. Do us and yourself a favor, and try EXPLAINING what youíre talking about in more detail. Consider that your JOB here, as you (for the moment) are the leading ďShredderď(T.M.) proponent. If you were to grade yourself as a Shredder representative, how do YOU think youíre doing so far? Honestly?


Quote:


P.S. Gavin If you shoot me an email ( in my profile ) I'll provide you with the contact details of a Senshido Affiliate in the UK. Richard Dimitri will also be running a few seminars on the weekend of OCTOBER 6th-7th. Check out this thread on the Senshido Forum for more details. this will be an opportunity for anyone in the UK to find out what its all about straight from the horses mouth.





What would be even better would be to see someone OTHER than Rich demonstrate. Itís like watching Bas Rutten demonstrate his ďstreet self defenseĒ tactics if you understand my meaning. Only Bas himself can make 99 percent of that stuff actually WORK, lol.


Cheers!


-John

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#332104 - 04/11/07 11:52 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
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Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Question: Is eye gouging in fact a part of the shredder? I would have to assume it is. Is it also, biting and other foul tacticsf




this is the last I'll say on it here John, If people are genuinely wanting to discover the true shredder the ask Rich Dimitri directly via his forum
http://senshido.savi.ca/index.php?sid=ac8bd7fdd0a42bbc284decd7412d438f

THE SHREDDER IS NOT ANY TECHNIQUE AT ALL, IT IS NOT EYE-GOUGING IT IS NOT FOUL TACTICS. THEY ARE USED WHEN SHREDDING IN A REAL SELF DEFENCE SITUATION BECAUSE THEY ARE GROSS MOTOR, AND INSTINCTUAL, THEY ALSO HAVE A GREATER PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT THEN OTHER LEGITIMATE TACTICS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE ANIMALISTIC OR PRIMAL NATURE OF IT.

YOU CAN STILL SHRED WITH ALL YOUR "LEGITIMATE" TECHNIQUES (APPROPRIATE TO RANGE) IE YOU CAN STILL SHRED WITH OUT USING ANY FOUL TACTICS. (providing you follow the 5 rules of physical retaliation tm, look it up on the Senshido site)

IT IS A DESIGNED FOR ACTUAL SELF PROTECTION AND NOT SPORTING APPLICATIONS. THUS THE USE OF TECHNIQUES THAT HAVE THE HIGHEST CHANCE OF SUCESS FOR THE GREATEST NO OF PEOPLE. CAUSING THE MOST AMOUNT OF DAMAGE AND EFFECT WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF EFFORT


THATS IT NO MORE, IF YOU WANT ANY MORE INFO YOU CAN ASK RICH HIMSELF ON THE FORUM LINK I HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED OR IF YOU PREFER CONTACT HIM VIA EMAIL OR PHONE AS GIVEN ON THE SENSHIDO WEBSITE

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#332105 - 04/12/07 12:31 AM the SHREDDER thread [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
I think the fence ô will defeat the shredder ô on the street ô vs. a street fighter ô in reality ô

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#332106 - 04/12/07 01:27 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Xibalba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
FYI all:

I found this article online when I searched the Senshido forum. However, I am still not sure that I understand the Shredder, nor how it differs in application from good grappling when used for self-defense.

drgndrew - are there any Shredder videos online that you could link us to that would help me understand this better? Maybe there is something that I just don't "get".

With respect,
Mike

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#332107 - 04/12/07 02:58 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Chill dude. My email is gavin@combatarena.co.uk and I'm based in Southend in Essex. Feel free to pass that to Senshido guys over here. I think my group and your group are at least on the same page when talking about friendly exchanges of ideas.

Thing is I have watched the Shredder DVD and I do understand the need to feel it and such, BUT I do have a fairly solid grasp of mechanics and human behaviour as they pertain to combat. And I acknowledge that my following statements may appear as a back step for a meet up but they are not.

The Shredder, as described by Rich in his DVD and as described by you is about harnessing and accessing the primeval animalistic part of the brain, the reptilian brain. In combat we seek to induce this state of fight or flight. Through our training as {fighters/self protection practitioners/martial artists/insert term} we try to access the fight response as a precursor to the flight in order to facilitate escape (if initial combat triggers are unavoidable). Everyone in the Shredder DVD immediately went into flight. Your training drills in that DVD actually reinforce this victim state in the Shreddee.

My Dad and many of his closest friends were Doorman/Bouncers over in the UK during the mid 70's right through the 80's which were the glory days for the violent bouncers. Through training and constant exposure to violence these guys learnt to bypass the flight response and fully engage and realise their fight response, flight is not an option their brains understand. The harder you try to push that flight response the greater the fight back. Think of a cornered and injured tiger and then you'll fully appreciate the mindset and mentality you are dealing with. That is a fighter, tear at an ear and these guys will rip it off and fight you harder. This is the mentality that has been instilled me and my guys.

When I step out of the blocks to attack I don't think clinch, I think hit. If I get tied up in a clinch I then think dominance and then hit again. If I'm getting desperate I may "shred" but that gets me back to HIT. I believe on the street striking is paramount, others may disagree but I don't want to be tied up for very long. If that's unavoidable I'll tie up to try get to a place where I can strike again, using any means at my disposal. If a choke, lock or break presents itself in the fray I try to train my body through drills to utilise them. BUT I'm always looking to finish. Rich says on the DVD that he'll be able to rip out a trachea...good luck. An ear yeah, I can live with that....but the throat.

Also killing a person with a strike to the throat? That's a comment I'd expect from a Krotty guy, not a RBSD guy. I've smashed a "dragons mouth" strike into someone's throat before and seen them walk off. Mind you I can't say they didn't die round the corner, but my liberty is still mine.

The other issue is the method of testing this. You're attacking my soft tissue. In training I'm afraid that I'm not going to let you claw my face to pieces. Also I'm not prepared to smash my elbows, knees and what not's into a training partners face (friendly or otherwise) as I'm not comfortable with intentionally hurting people (despite what some may believe! ). So I'd want one of those face guards you guys use, but then this leaves me open for a "you didn't respond realistically to the shred! So I'll allow any bites or grabs to any other part of my body free, but I'm not having my face mangled by anyone.

My overall view on the DVD is, yep great for for untrained people looking to deal with untrained very uncommitted people on the street, but that's about that. Remove the shredding element and you're left with a fairly standard DVD covering a bit of basic clinch work (sorta), basic body positon (sorta) and basic mindset (sorta). Not knocking what you guys are doing totally, I like elements of it and I have no doubts that Rich can do his stuff....but as John says, some fighters make stuff work coz of who they are rather than what they do.

That's about all I'm prepared to say on the matter.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#332108 - 04/12/07 03:08 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Xibalba]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
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There are some vids out there on you tube etc that shows a second or two of it in action. I won't link them simply because all you will see is the techniques there is no explanation or description. And those like ExCon will will somehow use it as proof it doesn't work (BTW I think he wants his strained carrots).

The instructional video for it is 2 hours long, it has a manual that goes with it and there is another tape that goes with it. You will gain nothing from a few seconds of action. It really has to be felt to be understood.

If people are genuinely wanting to discover the true shredder then ask Rich Dimitri directly via his forum
http://senshido.savi.ca/index.php?sid=ac8bd7fdd0a42bbc284decd7412d438f

Please don't ask me anymore about the concept I am just a fan of it I am not affiliated or linked to Senshido or Rich other then by my belief in his material and as a mate, instead go directly to the source. He is very approachable.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332109 - 04/12/07 04:03 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Gavin]
drgndrew Offline
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Gavin you are entitled to your opinion at least you are basing it on the material itself.

I really doubt that you your father or anyone else can continue on without react to a finger being buried into your eye, that is just macho [censored]. (no disrespect intended to your father)

Quote:

That is a fighter, tear at an ear and these guys will rip it off and fight you harder



Yes correct if all i do is tear the ear off. tearing an ear off WILL cause a reaction that reaction is all I need to damaging some other target such as burying my finger into your eye an inch or two and when you react to that I'll already be damaging some other area I also wont be just standing there in one spot I'l be constantly moving disrupting your balance as I go. and frankly I doubt very much you can ignore that kind of stimulation, are you claiming to be some kind of superhuman or have you found some way to turn off 40000 yrs of evolution.

to this I say [censored], I have one question does your dad have both ears, do you?? if so how can you claim you would not react. I bet if I shot you in the head you wouldn't react o die.

[quoteThink of a cornered and injured tiger and then you'll fully appreciate the mindset and mentality you are dealing with.



This is exactly the mindset etc that is used in the shredder, it is a self defence concept meaning you are the cornered tiger not the over confident hunter. part of the shredders effectiveness is because it is behavioral based and it uses the behavioral aspect of the street to launch it.

MY COMMENTS ARE NOTHING TO DO WITH FIGHTING, MY CONCEPTS ARE 100% LIFE AND DEATH.....SURVIVAL. not a street fight but a rape attempt (of to the smartarses out there who want to argue victim against attempted it matters little whether penetration occurred or not, the psychological damage is the same and is far worst then any physical damage,) I'm talking a mugging not a wat ya looking at ego test.

and Gavin my offer was for you to email me if you do not wish to, then don't, but don't go pretending the balls in my caught, if you want to be put in contact then ask me via email. Oh and watch the dvd again Rich doesn't claim he can rip out a trachea he says it as an expression of what you try to do, if you quote some one at least give it proper context.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

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Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332110 - 04/12/07 04:22 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Apologies if the I misquoted.

The ball is in your court matey. At the moment I'm training one of my guys up for a cage match so we are training with people every grappler, kick boxer and thai fighter we can get our hands on, who are all willing to travel. A fair majority of my guys including myself are Doorman so I'm pretty confident our stuff is grounded in a solid skill base. I'm afraid travelling to have a play with someone to prove a point isn't a time worthy aspect. We've had supposed RBSD guys down here before (not senshido admittedly) but they all have ended up uprooted out of their feet and bouncing off walls.

I've got mats, gloves and space to play if anyone wants to visit. If I have to travel, I travel to train with pro fighters and instructors (which I do BTW) and anything else I'm afraid is a waste of my very limited time. Our sessions are open for anyone to attend and my guys are very accommodating.

Whatever I think isn't going to change anything so consider this a notched up victory for senshido against another internet forum wannabe VTG...I can live with that.


Edited by Gavin (04/12/07 04:26 AM)
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#332111 - 04/12/07 04:23 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


drgndrew

Or how about the defender trying to poke the eyes
and not quite getting the target will
make the attacker that angry he now has twice the strength and is in a total uncontrollable rage.?
drgndrew your dreaming with your concept.
There are far better techniques than trying to poke some ones eyes when they are in full throttle trying to take my head off as in tonights sparring session.

The last thing that occurs to me when my sparring partner is in full throttle is to poke the eyes. The only thing that did stop my training partner was a kick to his leg.






You make me laugh Jude, earlier on in this thread you ask " what is this Shredder" now you're an expert on it. Grow up and stop pretending you can match it with the bib boys. you want to learn then show some respect






Quote:



You make me laugh Jude, earlier on in this thread you ask " what is this Shredder" now you're an expert on it. Grow up and stop pretending you can match it with the bib boys. you want to learn then show some








Have you ever heard of what the Americans call playing possum?
It is part of the self defence scene.
Would you you like to go through all the variables
that can be played out that before a physical confrontation?

I thought you taught self defence?



Show some respect? I show respect all the time but what you are trying to sell doesnít get any.
Everything you have come up with untill now seems B/S. Ok try this and maybe you could learn something. I might be new to wrestling but so are majority of strikers. Unless a technique is drilled and drilled it wont work correctly under pressure. How the hell are you going to train the eye poke under pressure? Testicle grab poss . If a person was attacked and the only thing a person has knowledge of is grabbing the testicles or poking the eyes and they come up against some one who is tasty?(tasty as you seemingly wouldnít comprehend given your sales pitch means they can fight) or physicaly stronger they are going to lose. Tell me why would I want to use the only limited techniqis you described when there are others that would work in that specific scenario that I could be drilling? And how do you drill these wondefull techniques? donít get me wrong the techniques are good. After all they have been around since year dot.Its your seemingly #### concept that you guys try to sell that isnít.


Donít drill a technique regular then it is unusable

Sorry John but this has to be said.
I think your talking total rubbish.
The whole concept your coming with is B/S.

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#332112 - 04/12/07 07:09 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
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Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Jude you are full of it I have met guys like you before, some of them I now call my friends, it would be nice if we could take this course as well.

Now you are playing possum and I now meant to sit back and tremble because you allegedly were playing possum pretending you were not who you are. please you are pathetic I am still making your ego talk and I'm not even trying now. your last post is nothing more then a final attempt to justify you lack of meaningful argument. first you try to degrade me and now the cpncept that I mentioned. all because the only way for your ego to be built higher is to put down those who are better then you. ( i have never said I was BTW)

Infact I was going to post a long reply quoting you etc basically showing you your own stupidity, but I couldn't be bothered.

there is NOTHING that i have said that cannot be proven with scientific analysis, I base my arguments on fact not fiction.

Now run away little boy, put your ninja gi on and tie your headband around your head, because frankly you would not last a day walking in the real world.
I hope this doesn't happen but one day you you may just find out that i was right and you where wrong.

"It had to be said", please who do you think you are your a nobody with nothing to offer, you are trying to team yourself with the big boys by agreeing and carry on there argument even though you really have no idea what your talking about, you have been constantly attacking me personally not what I'm saying. You are the little brother that the older boys have to put up with.

It is not MY concept, and it is not new it has been developed from Automatic responses that came from our cave man days many of the techniques that work well with it are the ones that would have been used by cave men.

Heres a challenge just for you PROOVE that anything that I have said with regard to the shredder, in this thread. is wrong. Truly prove it and don't just speculate, present me with evidence to the contrary.

UNtil then do not talk to me, or even mention my name, I do not want to be associated with you and will ignore any of your threads wether aimed at me or not. would you do me the courtesy of the same as any post I put on this forum will be not in anyway intended for you.

good bye Junior

Quote:

Would you you like to go through all the variables
that can be played out that before a physical confrontation?

I thought you taught self defence?




What the hell do you mean by this? I'm the one that has been saying how important the pre-fight control is. do you actually read the posts????


Edited by Dedicated1 (04/12/07 08:49 AM)

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#332113 - 04/12/07 07:21 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
MOD HEAD ON!

Let's keep this about concepts and theories rather tossing insults please.

Back on track please. Clinch and Street fighting. My take, foul tactics are part of the game and tools to be utilised. I agree totally with the Shredder mentality of predatory mindset, just don't agree with the way these concepts are utilised within the material that I've seen.

Jude - The science is very very valid, I don't agree with the exact interpretation and the way they train for it, BUT the science is valid. Watching the clips this tactic will work against a large percentage of general and martial arts population. Most people are sheep, some are dressed in wolves clothing, but most are sheep. Dealing with the sheep is easy. Hit them first and hard and it'll be over. I train to deal with wolves.

drgndrew and Jude - Please refrain from personal insults.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#332114 - 04/12/07 07:36 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Gavin]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
no problems Gavin I'll refrain from posting altogether
_________________________
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Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332115 - 04/12/07 08:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude you are full of it I have met guys like you before, some of them I now call my friends, it would be nice if we could take this course as well.

Now you are playing possum and I now meant to sit back and tremble because you allegedly were playing possum pretending you were not who you are. please you are pathetic I am still making your ego talk and I'm not even trying now. your last post is nothing more then a final attempt to justify you lack of meaningful argument. first you try to degrade me and now the cpncept that I mentioned. all because the only way for your ego to be built higher is to put down those who are better then you. ( i have never said I was BTW)

Infact I was going to post a long reply quoting you etc basically showing you your own stupidity, but I couldn't be bothered.

there is NOTHING that i have said that cannot be proven with scientific analysis, I base my arguments on fact not fiction.

Now run away little boy, put your ninja gi on and tie your headband around your head, because frankly you would not last a day walking in the real world.
I hope this doesn't happen but one day you you may just find out that i was right and you where wrong.

"It had to be said", please who do you think you are your a nobody with nothing to offer, you are trying to team yourself with the big boys by agreeing and carry on there argument even though you really have no idea what your talking about, you have been constantly attacking me personally not what I'm saying. You are the little brother that the older boys have to put up with.

It is not MY concept, and it is not new it has been developed from Automatic responses that came from our cave man days many of the techniques that work well with it are the ones that would have been used by cave men.

Heres a challenge just for you PROOVE that anything that I have said with regard to the shredder, in this thread. is wrong. Truly prove it and don't just speculate, present me with evidence to the contrary.

UNtil then do not talk to me, or even mention my name, I do not want to be associated with you and will ignore any of your threads wether aimed at me or not. would you do me the courtesy of the same as any post I put on this forum will be not in anyway intended for you.

good bye Junior

Quote:

Would you you like to go through all the variables
that can be played out that before a physical confrontation?

I thought you taught self defence?




What the hell do you mean by this? I'm the one that has been saying how important the pre-fight control is. do you actually read the posts????





Junior Jude?
Naaa not sure that has to good a ring. Either way.

Do you honestly think I will bite?

Rise to your what ever it is you wrote ? My ex;s call me worse than that when I have a mind to listen to them.
No said Jude I donít think so.
I am slowly rising above the occasion while practicing mushin.
Here is one for you .If you feel so strongly about your "concept" and seen as I think its B/S and seen as you are trying to sell it ?

This is self defence forum and here they discuss self defence so what do you think of roll playing?.
Here it is.
I have come to you for lessons. You think I am a complete "wus" super wuss even and I have never ever in my own little life been in a confrontation except with keyboard warriors. I can only punch wearing big padded gloves. I wear one of those face protection what ever they call them when I play tag(sparring) and oh yeah my groin protector is so big that the local women swoon. I have protection on my legs when I play tag . I have never taken part in physical conditioning nor has my training partners ever tried to take my head off when things get a bit heated during sparring(sparring?? Tag?) .

My gum shield is customised and not the normal factory fitted job. I need my nice white gleaming teeth for the ladies.(future exís)So how are you going to train me in your concept to use my nashers on some ones anatomy and the other parts of your concept in a self defence situation?
Step by step if you will?

Thoughts?

I think 24 hours would be a good time span.


Edited by Dedicated1 (04/12/07 08:52 AM)

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#332116 - 04/12/07 08:53 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
Shall we lock this thread, or can you guys play nice?
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#332117 - 04/12/07 12:28 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Dedicated1]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Shall we lock this thread, or can you guys play nice?




Play nice and learn about the original idea which was about clinching and self defence.

No longer rising.

Jude

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#332118 - 04/12/07 12:29 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Gavin]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Ok Gavin

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#332119 - 04/12/07 09:54 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Bump.

Drew, you can control a great deal of how others respond to you by the manner in which you respond yourself.

It WOULD be a shame to lock this thread but before that's done, I'll just start deleting posts. So anymore BS from anyone on this thread, and every last bit of the time it took to write the posts will have all been for naught, with the push of one little button.

Think twice guys. Play nice.


-John

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#332120 - 05/19/07 11:07 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Shihan64 Offline
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Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 4
Ok to be fair, I actually sat and read through an hour of text so I felt abit more informed from all points of view. I will say this 37 years in the arts, background in law enforcement, military (combat)and several parallel occupations, I have to say alot of this conversation is silly and juvenile. first off its a conversation about clinch in a SD situation and I have heard more about shredders than an infomercial on a slicer dicer. Ok we get it it shreds! Now that being said noone will deny sticking your fingers in a guys eyes, or throat or ripping his face apart will not be an effective weapon in a SD situation, I mean I have effectively used shredding techniques for years. Ive used many unorthodox techniques and tactics including sticking my finger in a guys rectum to dislodge his 330+ lb frame off me and give me the upper hand. (It worked ) a little soap and I was right as rain however noone and I mean noone can say any technique will guarantee win against anyone. The reason is a conflict is extremely complex with far too many variables to ensure absolute certainty on one course of action or distance etc. Too issue silly childish challenges of bravado has no place in a conversation of learning and debating within an arena of trained gentlemen of the Arts of honor.I advocate this drgn, when you become defensive and retalitory in your responses as you have all you've done is set a path to allow others to disprove your claims or skills. Let me say why, a competent skilled trained combatant has confidence in himself to such a degree that if another was to challenge his knowledge, skil or style, a typical response would be can you share with me why you feel the way you do about what Im saying. After hearing them out evaluate their answer if it helps you great if it doesnt great. Final response Well thanks for sharing your thoughts and I hope I was at least able to shed a little light on some of the things that I feel will work for me. End of story. Anyway Drgn good luck with your training, and please no more shredders. Thanks


Edited by Dedicated1 (05/19/07 09:13 PM)

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