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#332008 - 04/05/07 06:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Jude

I want go into great detail as it will be a bit off topic, but have a read of this link:

http://www.senshido.com/swwd2.html

It will give you a idea of what it's all about
It's also worth having a look on The Senshido forum ( http://senshido.savi.ca/index.php , heres one thread that looks at it
http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=1405
And there are hundreds of others

And there is a bit of a discussion of it on this forum Just use "Shredder" in a search

PS don't make the mistake that many do and assume it's just eye gouging and raking thats only a side effect of it
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332009 - 04/05/07 08:33 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

I want go into great detail as it will be a bit off topic




I壇 say that it is way off topic!

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#332010 - 04/05/07 10:03 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'm just not a big fan of the "shredder" and don't know if I ever will be. It sort of runs contrary to the "position first" concept of "good" close-range fighting. Just my opinion.

This isn't to say that such a tactic holds no merrit because I believe it does, but, ONLY does so within the context of an already established "clinch game".


-John

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#332011 - 04/05/07 05:02 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


Clinch is about BOTH offense and defense simultaneously in many respects.


-John




I agree but I値l add that the over-under position is considered a neutral position which is hard to attack from. Which is why most people try to pummel to a dominate poison before striking or throwing.

Instead of pummeling to a dominate poison like double under-hooks or a front head-arm lock I prefer to attack right from the over-under position with throws that work well from this tie-up, like the metzger.

I guess I知 a kind of over-under specialist.




Hi Guys I hope you dont mind if I take part in this conversation.

http://www.themat.com/CoachesCorner/technique/FarsideMetzger/default.php

I have just been looking at the metzger. Could I ask what method's would wrestlers use to drill it?


Edited by jude33 (04/05/07 05:04 PM)

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#332012 - 04/05/07 05:14 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I just drill it out of pummeling. That's really all there is to it.

If you or people you're working with are beginners, just work it into the "swim drill" to get some reps before you work more resistance into the pummeling. Thats one way.

To me, the move is like a "head peel" which is one of my favorite things to do. I like going to that off of underhooks from my opponent.


-John

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#332013 - 04/05/07 08:45 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

I'm just not a big fan of the "shredder" and don't know if I ever will be. It sort of runs contrary to the "position first" concept of "good" close-range fighting. Just my opinion.

This isn't to say that such a tactic holds no merrit because I believe it does, but, ONLY does so within the context of an already established "clinch game".


-John




Well we'll agree to disagree then, but personally I don't see how you came to this opinion, it gives you dominance by it's nature and thus position.

Only with in a established clinch game, well it is an extreme close quarter tactic, but I wouldn't say only.

But I'm sick of trying to convince those who don't won't to know about it or who aren't willing to change an existing point of view, that goes for the shredder and RBSD in general. (BTW not saying John or any of you guys are like that). I'll talk till I'm blue in the face, but until someone actually receives a shred (albeit simulated) from someone who actually knows what they're doing they will continue to believe what they want to. Even then the truly pigheaded will still create some reason to doubt.
woops sorry my rant

oh on a more on topic note
What do you guys mean by pummeling??
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

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Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332014 - 04/05/07 11:20 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Well we'll agree to disagree then, but personally I don't see how you came to this opinion






Just common sense. If you don't have control of your arms, how can you "shred"?



Quote:

.. it gives you dominance by it's nature and thus position.





If you are in an inferior position, you're not going to have dominance. That's my point.


Quote:


Only with in a established clinch game, well it is an extreme close quarter tactic, but I wouldn't say only.

But I'm sick of trying to convince those who don't won't to know about it or who aren't willing to change an existing point of view, that goes for the shredder and RBSD in general. (BTW not saying John or any of you guys are like that). I'll talk till I'm blue in the face, but until someone actually receives a shred (albeit simulated) from someone who actually knows what they're doing they will continue to believe what they want to. Even then the truly pigheaded will still create some reason to doubt.
woops sorry my rant





I've been working my clinch for a LONG time bro. The shredder is a close range (read, "clinch" range) tactic. I know a thing or two about close range tactics and I know that I can have every gimmick tool in the book but if I can't wrestle in the clinch, it's all pretty much worthless.

If you don't know how to wrestle in the clinch and attempt to "shred" against someone who does, you'll end up being dumped flat on your head as a result. That would SUCK on asphalt. But don't take my word for it. Get with some really good wrestlers (not just the highschool boys) and try it out yourself.



Quote:


oh on a more on topic note
What do you guys mean by pummeling??




If you don't understand what pummeling is, you really shouldn't be arguing against my points about the clinch perhaps? Seriously, it sort of illustrates that you probably don't have a well established clinch game. It's not surprising though, most folks don't. It's the very reason I've made it my forte'.

I'm just waiting for someone to come shreddin' brother. When that day comes and I'm made helpless like a baby, I'll be the first to come here and admit it.

But while they're shreddin', I'm going to be working to my clinch game. If that means, suplexing a guy back to the stone age, so be it.


-John

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#332015 - 04/06/07 01:43 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

But while they're shreddin', I'm going to be working to my clinch game. If that means, suplexing a guy back to the stone age, so be it.




No you won't, this proves you don't understand the concept. The only thing you will be thinking is "get the F#ck off me".

Quote:

If you don't have control of your arms, how can you "shred"?




spit, bite, head-but, shoulder etc CLAWING (HANDS) IS NOT THE ONLY TOOL USED IN SHREDDING.

now I bet you'll say if you bite me I'll XYZ or break something well yeah if I just bite you, but you will flinch and while you're flinching you won't be breaking anything and by the time you move to defend/attack the bite I'll be onto my next move you will always be playing catch up, and there's nothing you can do about it. You cannot turnoff 40000 yrs of ANS response, and I will be "under you flinch" bombarding your senses with an overwhelming onslaught of stimuli you will go foetal (fetal in the USA) both psychologically and physically

Quote:

I've been working my clinch for a LONG time bro. The shredder is a close range (read, "clinch" range) tactic. I know a thing or two about close range tactics.




I'm sure your wrestling and CQC tactics are superb maybe even superior to mine
Quote:

I know that I can have every gimmick tool in the book but if I can't wrestle in the clinch, it's all pretty much worthless




So how do you explain the 1000's of rape victims who have successfully defended them selves in what could be considered the closest combat range, or at least equivalent to clinch range, without any training what so ever.

I have personally witnessed Olympic level Judokas turned foetal by the Shredder and that was simulated. The Shredder has not yet failed when applied full force in a self defence situation.

Quote:

If you don't understand what pummeling is, you really shouldn't be arguing against my points about the clinch perhaps? Seriously, it sort of illustrates that you probably don't have a well established clinch game. It's not surprising though, most folks don't. It's the very reason I've made it my forte'.




I asked for a definition of an unfamiliar term, in Australia to pummel someone is to repeatedly hit them (usually with the fiet) over and over again. From the context of the use of the word in this thread i figured it add another meaning related to wrestling. I have never training college wresting etc so it is likely that i haven't come across this use of the term. Does this mean I have no clinch game, well thats up to you to decide, but if you want to make assumptions based on semantics then it is your loss, remember what they say about assumption.

I'm sick of having to justify my self, who are more often then not too pig headed to accept anything someone else says. You can disagree with me, but do it from a base of knowledge not an assumption of superiority.

(John Your last implication that i quoted above, did kind of [censored] me off, I found it rather disrespectful)
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332016 - 04/06/07 03:11 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Hi Guys I hope you dont mind if I take part in this conversation.

http://www.themat.com/CoachesCorner/technique/FarsideMetzger/default.php

I have just been looking at the metzger. Could I ask what method's would wrestlers use to drill it?




Here is a video that shows how to drill the metzger.

http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Wrestling_Ta...tioning_metzger

You will notice that the metzger in the video is a different variation to the metzger shown on the Mat page. Coach Welch pulls on the lat, the wrestler in blue from the Mat page pulls on the head. Same throw but a different variation. I use both but I like the Mat version a little better.

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#332017 - 04/06/07 03:22 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Hello again John

I don稚 know if you missed my pervious post

Quote:

Hello JKogas

I recall from a pervious conversation that you also like the over-under clinch. I wonder if we might pick up some tips or ideas from one and another. I値l start by asking you some questions and to be fair I値l answer for myself as we go.

Question 1; left or right for your over and under hooks? I habitually overhook with my left arm and underhook with my right. I think because I box orthodox, this is the reason for my preference. Btw do you box orthodox or southpaw? That was question 2.

Question 3; generally what foot do you lead with? I understand that the clinch is fluid but I mean as your base stance in the clinch. I generally lead with my right foot (I知 a southpaw in the clinch).

Question 4; do you prefer to pummel to a dominate clinch before throwing or to throw from the over-under? Question 4b; if you prefer pummeling to dominate clinch which one? I prefer to throw from the over-under.

Question 5; what throws/takedowns do you like from the over-under? I like the metzger, uchi mata, sag throw and corkscrew headlock.

Question 6; what throws/takedowns do you like after pummeling out of over-under? I like the fireman and the makikomi throws.

Btw if some of my left/right preferences seem odd to you, it may be because I知 partially ambidextrous.




or if you prefer to engage in an argument over something as stupid as this shredder crap.

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