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#331998 - 04/01/07 07:49 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
When clinching with your opponent, do you mostly
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 04/01/07 07:49 PM
View the results of this poll.

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#331999 - 04/01/07 07:53 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'd say I do both. Most of the time I work to attack and take my opponent down. But there are definitely times that I'm using the clinch to stop a takedown as well. More often than not though I'm offensive instead of defensive.

Clinch is about BOTH offense and defense simultaneously in many respects.


-John

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#332000 - 04/01/07 08:27 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ditto what JKogas said. Depends on how the opponent is acting or reacting, but predominantly offensive.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#332001 - 04/03/07 04:16 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: MattJ]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Guys, (& Girls)

I've answered other for all of the first questions by Ex-con, mainly because I don't have a "preference" as such. I like all applications, but when it comes to self defence ( as opposed to sport) I tend to use what presents.

In the clinch you don't have the grounding torque and distance required for "effective" striking. Effective meaning that you are not going to have significant power or KO power. You will rarely see a KO from the clinch, when they do happen it's because there was a disengagement and distance was created. Short sharp strikes work well such as a quick elbow thrown without "cocking"

While in the clinch the energy being applied will often negate a lot of options, knees for eg aren't readily available until you have control and created a distance. You have to take control or obtain the dominant position, this is where your vertical or standing grappling comes into play. First of all you want to maintain your feet followed closely by controlling the weapons and tools of your opponent. Muay Thai clinch work and Judo randori are great for this. I've had little to do with wrestling But even I can see how it can come into play.

I don't like going to ground in the street so my takedowns, throws etc will be ones that leave me on my feet.

Hey you guys are lucky I could see this was going to be another long post by me, but I have to run off to teach a class. hmmm maybe some clinch work tonight
_________________________
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#332002 - 04/03/07 07:12 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


In the clinch you don't have the grounding torque and distance required for "effective" striking. Effective meaning that you are not going to have significant power or KO power. You will rarely see a KO from the clinch, when they do happen it's because there was a disengagement and distance was created. Short sharp strikes work well such as a quick elbow thrown without "cocking"





I've seen elbows and knees knock guys out from very close range without disengagement. Clinch striking DOES require know-how and timing though. Perhaps that is a problem with many who don't train it effectively or don't know HOW to train it effectively.


Quote:


While in the clinch the energy being applied will often negate a lot of options, knees for eg aren't readily available until you have control and created a distance.





I'd just say again that you might be surprised at how little room one needs to throw an effective knee. Elbows, uppercuts, chin jabs, headbutting, foot stomping, shoulder butting....ALL good strikes, and all can be thrown from very close range as well.


Quote:


You have to take control or obtain the dominant position, this is where your vertical or standing grappling comes into play. First of all you want to maintain your feet followed closely by controlling the weapons and tools of your opponent. Muay Thai clinch work and Judo randori are great for this. I've had little to do with wrestling But even I can see how it can come into play.





Muay Thai, judo, are great. Greco-Roman has to be included with them as well. I don't personally care for a lot of Thai clinch strategies but they can certainly be effective for the right people.


Quote:


I don't like going to ground in the street so my takedowns, throws etc will be ones that leave me on my feet.





I don't like fighting in the street at ALL. So I'm usually headed in the other direction when trouble is brewing. My hell raising days are behind me. That said, I'll do whatever is necessary to go home safe. If that means throwing someone and running great. If it means taking a person down and controlling him, great. Each situation will be different and will dictate the appropriate course of action.


Quote:


Hey you guys are lucky I could see this was going to be another long post by me, but I have to run off to teach a class. hmmm maybe some clinch work tonight





Looking forward to it.


-John

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#332003 - 04/03/07 09:25 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:


Clinch is about BOTH offense and defense simultaneously in many respects.


-John




I agree but I値l add that the over-under position is considered a neutral position which is hard to attack from. Which is why most people try to pummel to a dominate poison before striking or throwing.

Instead of pummeling to a dominate poison like double under-hooks or a front head-arm lock I prefer to attack right from the over-under position with throws that work well from this tie-up, like the metzger.

I guess I知 a kind of over-under specialist.

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#332004 - 04/03/07 03:24 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Knees to the body from the over-under clinch, knees to the body from double underhooks, elbows to the face and knees to the body from the thai clinch (I dont like that as much as the others though).

Single leg takedowns from hand control.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#332005 - 04/03/07 09:00 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day John
I'm not saying its not possible , of course it is, but to through full power techniques you must have distance. i guess my use of the word disengage was a bit wrong. You can still be engaged but you do need to create a gap or distance. The knee to the ribs for eg requires room to move that knee, this can easily be created but a push pull and "jaging" both create a distance whilst still engaged. By disengaging I refer more to disengaging from the wrestle, gaining control and dominance and then applying your strategy.

You can't strike as effectively when engaged in the wrestle, you may be able to throw short jabbing like shots but they won't be AS effective as a normal strike ( whatever that is now-a-days), I've also seen these short elbows work wonders but a full elbow works better.

I used to teach Thai for most of the 90's, it's secret is in the clinch control, a knee is rarely thrown without having a hold of your opponent, clinching and kneeing go hand in hand. My point is that you must have control of the clinch to strike effectively. I'd almost guarantee that the KO's from the clinch that you have seen will have come after they had gained control in the clinch, there would have also been some kind of gap created.

You may not need much room for close quarter strikes but you do need room

The clinch is a constant struggle for balance, unless you have gained control your legs are going to be too busy maintaining your balance, only once you have gained control of the clinch, and thus your balance, can you effectively use your legs in striking.

In a clinch I'll Shred, ( c/o Rich Dimitri, Senshido ) It's the easiest and quickest way to gain dominance and control that i have come across, once in the dominant position I'll either continue Shredding or move to another tactic depending on the situation and my goals. i can go straight to the Shred with having to create distance, use strength and even begin it from a disadvantaged position. It will quickly switch the predator-prey mentality and thus gain instant control.

Bare in mind we are talking Self Defence here, A clinch in the street has a hell of a different dynamic then the clinch in the ring or on the mat. What works in the dojo may not work on the tarmac.

oh and it depends
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#332006 - 04/05/07 12:11 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Hello JKogas

I recall from a pervious conversation that you also like the over-under clinch. I wonder if we might pick up some tips or ideas from one and another. I値l start by asking you some questions and to be fair I値l answer for myself as we go.

Question 1; left or right for your over and under hooks? I habitually overhook with my left arm and underhook with my right. I think because I box orthodox, this is the reason for my preference. Btw do you box orthodox or southpaw? That was question 2.

Question 3; generally what foot do you lead with? I understand that the clinch is fluid but I mean as your base stance in the clinch. I generally lead with my right foot (I知 a southpaw in the clinch).

Question 4; do you prefer to pummel to a dominate clinch before throwing or to throw from the over-under? Question 4b; if you prefer pummeling to dominate clinch which one? I prefer to throw from the over-under.

Question 5; what throws/takedowns do you like from the over-under? I like the metzger, uchi mata, sag throw and corkscrew headlock.

Question 6; what throws/takedowns do you like after pummeling out of over-under? I like the fireman and the makikomi throws.

Btw if some of my left/right preferences seem odd to you, it may be because I知 partially ambidextrous.

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#332007 - 04/05/07 06:05 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

In a clinch I'll Shred, ( c/o Rich Dimitri, Senshido )




Hi There
I have looked on the internet and cant realy see what
is meant in by the term of "shred"
Would there be a chance of having it explained?

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