FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 36 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Troy7785, wakita, swisztony, Tonybb, shelly1993
22920 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 3
Matakiant 3
AndyLA 3
Zombie Zero 1
Marcus Charles 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Eugue Ryu
by
03/27/07 12:06 AM
Recent Posts
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Victor Smith
09/28/14 07:11 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/19/14 09:05 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
09/18/14 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
Forum Stats
22920 Members
36 Forums
35579 Topics
432500 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 12 of 14 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 >
Topic Options
#332098 - 04/11/07 06:32 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Firstly I havent(untill now) realy began to study clinching in to great a depth. Using body weight in a clinch?
Even with the correct use of body weigth in this form of a Thai clinch it would seem that at times both people are open to head butts or right or left hooks. If in a self defence scenario Peter? was attacking me and began to clinch as per the video my head would be well in his face. OK once a person is off balance punches and head butts would be difficult to use. But even so.





Personally I'm not the biggest fan of moving straight into a Thai clinch and using that as my base from which to attack.

However I should point out that two things are required to make the Thai clinch effective: 1) You "break down" your opponents posture by pulling the head down with your hands or 2) You are moving him about, keeping him off balance. During BOTH tactics, you're not forgetting about own offense. That said, it's still not a favorite tactic of mine because I feel too "squared up" with my opponent. I like to work angles and have more control over the limbs.

Of course the Thai clinch works well for some folks so it just depends on what a person is comfortable with.

Me, I like getting the "over-under position" and working from there. First off, you have to become quite good with that because the over-under is also the "50-50" and everything YOU have, the opponent has as well. So the secret there is to augment the position in your favor and to get to work immediately with your offense. And there is a LOT you can do from that position.

You can work striking and takedowns, you can switch to other positions, (single underhook, body lock, etc). The coolest part is, with skill you can shut down your opponents offense as you launch your own.

Thus is the value of the clinch.


-John

Top
#332099 - 04/11/07 01:39 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


Firstly I havent(untill now) realy began to study clinching in to great a depth. Using body weight in a clinch?
Even with the correct use of body weigth in this form of a Thai clinch it would seem that at times both people are open to head butts or right or left hooks. If in a self defence scenario Peter? was attacking me and began to clinch as per the video my head would be well in his face. OK once a person is off balance punches and head butts would be difficult to use. But even so.





Personally I'm not the biggest fan of moving straight into a Thai clinch and using that as my base from which to attack.

However I should point out that two things are required to make the Thai clinch effective: 1) You "break down" your opponents posture by pulling the head down with your hands or 2) You are moving him about, keeping him off balance. During BOTH tactics, you're not forgetting about about own offense. That said, it's still not a favorite tactic of mine because I feel too "squared up" with my opponent. I like to work angles and have more control over the limbs.

Of course the Thai clinch works well for some folks so it just depends on what a person is comfortable with.

Me, I like getting the "over-under position" and working from there. First off, you have to become quite good with that because the over-under is also the "50-50" and everything YOU have, the opponent has as well. So the secret there is to augment the position in your favor and to get to work immediately with your offense. And there is a LOT you can do from that position.

You can work striking and takedowns, you can switch to other positions, (single underhook, body lock, etc). The coolest part is, with skill you can shut down your opponents offense as you launch your own.

Thus is the value of the clinch.


-John




Ok John we will work on it.

Top
#332100 - 04/11/07 02:16 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Gavin stated
There are no short cuts for learning how to fight skilful fighters other than learning to be skilful yourself. No if's or butt's. Learning to fight mugs off the street is easy, just requires a good right hand and a bit of bottle. I'm after a bit more than that out of my training.




Yep Gavin agreed.
Quote:


Gavin.

In my eyes in order for the Shredder to work the person has to respond in an untrained manner to the stimulus and panic. It is a panic tactic used to induce a panic state





drgndrew

Or how about the defender trying to poke the eyes
and not quite getting the target will
make the attacker that angry he now has twice the strength and is in a total uncontrollable rage.?
drgndrew your dreaming with your concept.
There are far better techniques than trying to poke some ones eyes when they are in full throttle trying to take my head off as in tonights sparring session.

The last thing that occurs to me when my sparring partner is in full throttle is to poke the eyes. The only thing that did stop my training partner was a kick to his leg.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (04/11/07 05:41 PM)

Top
#332101 - 04/11/07 05:34 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: Gavin]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Gavin -


I just got finished reading your post for the first time. All that I can say is WOW! What a TRULY excellent read that was and I agree completely with what you said.

There is NO shortcut or SUBSTITUTE for skill in legitimate delivery systems.


-John

Top
#332102 - 04/11/07 10:15 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: jude33]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:


drgndrew

Or how about the defender trying to poke the eyes
and not quite getting the target will
make the attacker that angry he now has twice the strength and is in a total uncontrollable rage.?
drgndrew your dreaming with your concept.
There are far better techniques than trying to poke some ones eyes when they are in full throttle trying to take my head off as in tonights sparring session.

The last thing that occurs to me when my sparring partner is in full throttle is to poke the eyes. The only thing that did stop my training partner was a kick to his leg.






You make me laugh Jude, earlier on in this thread you ask " what is this Shredder" now you're an expert on it. Grow up and stop pretending you can match it with the bib boys. you want to learn then show some respect

Nothing that you guys have said is entirely wrong except for a few assumptions you have made.
-Poking someone in the eye, grabbing the nuts etc is not shredding, DO NOT ASSUME THAT IF YOU ATTACK THE EYES YOU ARE SHREDDING
-by your own admissions no one has ever been shredded here, yet you are able to, with out doubt, say how you or another trained fighter will react to it. how is this possible if you have never actually felt it. please, Make your comments on actual experience and not imagined.
-the shredder is a concept not a technique. (metaphor- it is the reason why a plane can fly not the plane itself)
- the shredder is not a short cut, it has been in development for more then 11 years, if you can GENERALLY PROVE THE CONCEPT OF THE SHREDDER IS FLOORED IN ANY WAY THEN CONTACT RIC DIMITRI AND LET HIM KNOW. it is constantly evolving, if something doesn't work in reality in Rich's system (Senshido) then he will drop it or look at ways to make it work.
- No one has said that you don't need to develop all your ranges, "the shredder is just another piece of the jigsaw" ( quote R. Dimitri) an understanding of grappling will enhance your shredding and an understanding of the shredder will compliment your grappling.
- the shredder is an extreme close quarter tactic, you can not shred if you have not made contact.
- sparing and a street defence situation are interchangeable.
_ I'm sure their are more but I'm getting sick of trying to explain something that most of you have closed your mind too.

I'm not some yellow belt that has a crush on my instructor, I have studied a great deal of different martial arts, I'm not saying I'm great ( I am but i'm not saying that ), everything I have said is based on actual experience not extrapolation, speculation or imagination. I have seen it first hand, felt it first hand and have personally witnessed very experienced grapplers face the shredder with a consistent result. hell i even offered myself as a guinea pig to prove my claim and give you guys an opportunity to prove yours (only 1 person was open minded enough to accept, most made excuses)

It is clear that I am not respected on the forum, people here, in general, are simply close minded to believe that i have anything to offer. i am not going to waste my time with these kind o people, nor am i going to waste my hard earned knowledge and my decades of experience and learning with you . I was hoping that this forum would be a little different then the majority of self defence forums out there. just like the majority of forums people here are more concerned with proving people wrong than learning and developing their Self Protection. most of this proof isn't even based on fact or experience, but rather heresy and imagination.

There are some individuals here that that don' deserve to be lumped in to the above, they know who they are. To the rest of you Shame, you don't deserve the right to call yourself Martial artists.

I will be very reluctant to share my knowledge and ideas here in the future, you may not think so and you'll probably imply that i am up myself, but i believe i am worth more then that. If you think I do have some thing to offer then you will need to contact me off forum.


P.S. Gavin If you shoot me an email ( in my profile ) I'll provide you with the contact details of a Senshido Affiliate in the UK. Richard Dimitri will also be running a few seminars on the weekend of OCTOBER 6th-7th. Check out this thread on the Senshido Forum for more details. this will be an opportunity for anyone in the UK to find out what its all about straight from the horses mouth.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

Top
#332103 - 04/11/07 11:17 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Nothing that you guys have said is entirely wrong except for a few assumptions you have made.
-Poking someone in the eye, grabbing the nuts etc is not shredding, DO NOT ASSUME THAT IF YOU ATTACK THE EYES YOU ARE SHREDDING





Question: Is eye gouging in fact a part of the shredder? I would have to assume it is. Is it also, biting and other foul tactics?


Quote:

- the shredder is not a short cut, it has been in development for more then 11 years, if you can GENERALLY PROVE THE CONCEPT OF THE SHREDDER IS FLOORED IN ANY WAY THEN CONTACT RIC DIMITRI AND LET HIM KNOW.
it is constantly evolving, if something doesn't work in reality in Rich's system (Senshido) then he will drop it or look at ways to make it work.





I think what is meant by “short-cut” is the notion of spending more time on developing foul tactics and spending less time on sparring, wrestling, etc. Those skillsets have to be in place obviously or, no matter HOW great one is with the shredder, you won’t be able to even USE it before being completely throttled.


Quote:


- No one has said that you don't need to develop all your ranges, "the shredder is just another piece of the jigsaw" ( quote R. Dimitri) an understanding of grappling will enhance your shredding and an understanding of the shredder will compliment your grappling.





That much is agreeable with. Its what I’ve been saying. Of course, to a person with well developed delivery systems, putting in the foul tactics is an easy process. It isn’t the other way around. That’s been MY point.


Quote:


- the shredder is an extreme close quarter tactic, you can not shred if you have not made contact.
- sparing and a street defence situation are interchangeable.
_ I'm sure their are more but I'm getting sick of trying to explain something that most of you have closed your mind too.





Perhaps the problem lies with the “product”. It sounds as if in the middle of a fight, a person is going to pull out a cheese grater, lol. Of course I’m just kidding here, but seriously, the “name” is the dividing point I believe. Couldn’t it be mentioned with the actual tactics? That so far appears pretty vague whereas, going into a person’s eyes, grabbing the hair, biting, etc are seem fairly concrete and obvious.

And certainly those tactics are indeed viable ones - to a point. No one would argue that point I believe.


Quote:


It is clear that I am not respected on the forum, people here, in general, are simply close minded to believe that i have anything to offer. i am not going to waste my time with these kind o people, nor am i going to waste my hard earned knowledge and my decades of experience and learning with you . I was hoping that this forum would be a little different then the majority of self defence forums out there. just like the majority of forums people here are more concerned with proving people wrong than learning and developing their Self Protection. most of this proof isn't even based on fact or experience, but rather heresy and imagination.






I should share MY experience here with you. When I first came on this forum, NO ONE wanted to really hear what I was saying. I was in CONSTANT argument with just about everyone here. Was I respected? I believe so. You’re not respected for your message so much at times as for your ability to stand firm for what you believe.

Don’t let those who disagree discourage or dissuade you because I didn’t. I just kept firing away and now 99% of this forum agrees with what my message here is. And that message has NOT changed one bit from the time I joined here. Perhaps the delivery has to some degree, but the message certainly hasn’t.

I see no reason for you to back away from the forums because people either disagree or don’t understand. It’s YOUR job to change that or, forge on regardless.


Quote:


There are some individuals here that that don' deserve to be lumped in to the above, they know who they are. To the rest of you Shame, you don't deserve the right to call yourself Martial artists.





Forget about it. Just continue on. Again, I believe the problem lies with the fact that the “Shredder“(T.M.) sounds like something sold on the Home Shopping Network. In short, it sounds gimmicky. It may not be in the slightest. But, without fully explaining the concept or, how you go ABOUT the using the concept, people have nothing to reference it to. It’s vague and sounds like something a girl would do to another girl in a fight. (We call those “cat fights” ya know, hair pulling, clawing, flailing about, etc.)


Quote:


I will be very reluctant to share my knowledge and ideas here in the future, you may not think so and you'll probably imply that i am up myself, but i believe i am worth more then that. If you think I do have some thing to offer then you will need to contact me off forum.





I would only encourage you to think about what you’re saying and how its coming across. And I mean no disrespect but you’re running from people who are merely being skeptical and critical. You wouldn’t run in a “street fight” would you? Yet when people are throwing “hard words” at you, you decide to back off? How’s that work?

Don’t take what I’m saying wrong here. I’m just trying to get you to look at it from another perspective. Do us and yourself a favor, and try EXPLAINING what you’re talking about in more detail. Consider that your JOB here, as you (for the moment) are the leading “Shredder“(T.M.) proponent. If you were to grade yourself as a Shredder representative, how do YOU think you’re doing so far? Honestly?


Quote:


P.S. Gavin If you shoot me an email ( in my profile ) I'll provide you with the contact details of a Senshido Affiliate in the UK. Richard Dimitri will also be running a few seminars on the weekend of OCTOBER 6th-7th. Check out this thread on the Senshido Forum for more details. this will be an opportunity for anyone in the UK to find out what its all about straight from the horses mouth.





What would be even better would be to see someone OTHER than Rich demonstrate. It’s like watching Bas Rutten demonstrate his “street self defense” tactics if you understand my meaning. Only Bas himself can make 99 percent of that stuff actually WORK, lol.


Cheers!


-John

Top
#332104 - 04/11/07 11:52 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Question: Is eye gouging in fact a part of the shredder? I would have to assume it is. Is it also, biting and other foul tacticsf




this is the last I'll say on it here John, If people are genuinely wanting to discover the true shredder the ask Rich Dimitri directly via his forum
http://senshido.savi.ca/index.php?sid=ac8bd7fdd0a42bbc284decd7412d438f

THE SHREDDER IS NOT ANY TECHNIQUE AT ALL, IT IS NOT EYE-GOUGING IT IS NOT FOUL TACTICS. THEY ARE USED WHEN SHREDDING IN A REAL SELF DEFENCE SITUATION BECAUSE THEY ARE GROSS MOTOR, AND INSTINCTUAL, THEY ALSO HAVE A GREATER PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT THEN OTHER LEGITIMATE TACTICS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE ANIMALISTIC OR PRIMAL NATURE OF IT.

YOU CAN STILL SHRED WITH ALL YOUR "LEGITIMATE" TECHNIQUES (APPROPRIATE TO RANGE) IE YOU CAN STILL SHRED WITH OUT USING ANY FOUL TACTICS. (providing you follow the 5 rules of physical retaliation tm, look it up on the Senshido site)

IT IS A DESIGNED FOR ACTUAL SELF PROTECTION AND NOT SPORTING APPLICATIONS. THUS THE USE OF TECHNIQUES THAT HAVE THE HIGHEST CHANCE OF SUCESS FOR THE GREATEST NO OF PEOPLE. CAUSING THE MOST AMOUNT OF DAMAGE AND EFFECT WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF EFFORT


THATS IT NO MORE, IF YOU WANT ANY MORE INFO YOU CAN ASK RICH HIMSELF ON THE FORUM LINK I HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED OR IF YOU PREFER CONTACT HIM VIA EMAIL OR PHONE AS GIVEN ON THE SENSHIDO WEBSITE

Top
#332105 - 04/12/07 12:31 AM the SHREDDER thread [Re: drgndrew]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
I think the fence ™ will defeat the shredder ™ on the street ™ vs. a street fighter ™ in reality ™

Top
#332106 - 04/12/07 01:27 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Xibalba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
FYI all:

I found this article online when I searched the Senshido forum. However, I am still not sure that I understand the Shredder, nor how it differs in application from good grappling when used for self-defense.

drgndrew - are there any Shredder videos online that you could link us to that would help me understand this better? Maybe there is something that I just don't "get".

With respect,
Mike

Top
#332107 - 04/12/07 02:58 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Chill dude. My email is gavin@combatarena.co.uk and I'm based in Southend in Essex. Feel free to pass that to Senshido guys over here. I think my group and your group are at least on the same page when talking about friendly exchanges of ideas.

Thing is I have watched the Shredder DVD and I do understand the need to feel it and such, BUT I do have a fairly solid grasp of mechanics and human behaviour as they pertain to combat. And I acknowledge that my following statements may appear as a back step for a meet up but they are not.

The Shredder, as described by Rich in his DVD and as described by you is about harnessing and accessing the primeval animalistic part of the brain, the reptilian brain. In combat we seek to induce this state of fight or flight. Through our training as {fighters/self protection practitioners/martial artists/insert term} we try to access the fight response as a precursor to the flight in order to facilitate escape (if initial combat triggers are unavoidable). Everyone in the Shredder DVD immediately went into flight. Your training drills in that DVD actually reinforce this victim state in the Shreddee.

My Dad and many of his closest friends were Doorman/Bouncers over in the UK during the mid 70's right through the 80's which were the glory days for the violent bouncers. Through training and constant exposure to violence these guys learnt to bypass the flight response and fully engage and realise their fight response, flight is not an option their brains understand. The harder you try to push that flight response the greater the fight back. Think of a cornered and injured tiger and then you'll fully appreciate the mindset and mentality you are dealing with. That is a fighter, tear at an ear and these guys will rip it off and fight you harder. This is the mentality that has been instilled me and my guys.

When I step out of the blocks to attack I don't think clinch, I think hit. If I get tied up in a clinch I then think dominance and then hit again. If I'm getting desperate I may "shred" but that gets me back to HIT. I believe on the street striking is paramount, others may disagree but I don't want to be tied up for very long. If that's unavoidable I'll tie up to try get to a place where I can strike again, using any means at my disposal. If a choke, lock or break presents itself in the fray I try to train my body through drills to utilise them. BUT I'm always looking to finish. Rich says on the DVD that he'll be able to rip out a trachea...good luck. An ear yeah, I can live with that....but the throat.

Also killing a person with a strike to the throat? That's a comment I'd expect from a Krotty guy, not a RBSD guy. I've smashed a "dragons mouth" strike into someone's throat before and seen them walk off. Mind you I can't say they didn't die round the corner, but my liberty is still mine.

The other issue is the method of testing this. You're attacking my soft tissue. In training I'm afraid that I'm not going to let you claw my face to pieces. Also I'm not prepared to smash my elbows, knees and what not's into a training partners face (friendly or otherwise) as I'm not comfortable with intentionally hurting people (despite what some may believe! ). So I'd want one of those face guards you guys use, but then this leaves me open for a "you didn't respond realistically to the shred! So I'll allow any bites or grabs to any other part of my body free, but I'm not having my face mangled by anyone.

My overall view on the DVD is, yep great for for untrained people looking to deal with untrained very uncommitted people on the street, but that's about that. Remove the shredding element and you're left with a fairly standard DVD covering a bit of basic clinch work (sorta), basic body positon (sorta) and basic mindset (sorta). Not knocking what you guys are doing totally, I like elements of it and I have no doubts that Rich can do his stuff....but as John says, some fighters make stuff work coz of who they are rather than what they do.

That's about all I'm prepared to say on the matter.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
Page 12 of 14 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 >


Moderator:  Cord, Dedicated1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga