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#331988 - 03/31/07 10:36 PM Clinching and self-defense
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
What do you like best?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 03/31/07 10:35 PM
View the results of this poll.
Striking, what do you like best?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 03/31/07 10:35 PM
View the results of this poll.
Throws/takedowns, what do you like best?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 03/31/07 10:35 PM
View the results of this poll.

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#331989 - 03/31/07 10:38 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
What do you like best?

Throws/takedowns from the clinch
I like the judo makikomi throws and the wrestling metzger best.


Striking, what do you like best?

Dirty boxing


Throws/takedowns, what do you like best?

Wrestling style tie-up
I usually try to pummel for an over-under tie-up. And I use a non-gi grip for the makikomi throws.

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#331990 - 04/01/07 12:34 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ex Con -

I was going to add my two cents here but you've done that for me. Your post exactly mirrors my own philosophy.


-John

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#331991 - 04/01/07 04:59 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: ExCon]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Call me old fashion but I like stand up locks and submissions. As always I'm gonna go for the small limbs, I use any distraction in order to grab hold. Finger locks, wrist locks, and arm bars thats how I do it. Basically anything that can be found in the small circle ju-jutsu handbook. Cuz thats how I roll...

At first I chose dirty boxing, but lets face it, I didn't study the Asian martial arts to leave out all those open hand strikes. I will jab you in the eye, chop you across the throat, palm heel your nose, and fish hook your cheeck if I have to. Bring it son!

What fondling method do I prefer? Well... the one that gets your fairy butt off me the quickest. I don't expect to be doing much hugging and I don't expect you to grab me as well. But if it does turn into one of those "love me tender bouts" I prefer judo sweeps and throws, over your wrestling.

Of course if I had the freakish strength of Matt Hughes or Incredible Hulk, I would pick you up over my head and toss you into a moving vehicle. RawR, deal with it!
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#331992 - 04/01/07 08:59 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Call me old fashion but I like stand up locks and submissions. As always I'm gonna go for the small limbs, I use any distraction in order to grab hold. Finger locks, wrist locks, and arm bars thats how I do it. Basically anything that can be found in the small circle ju-jutsu handbook. Cuz thats how I roll...





Tek -

I used to like that sort of stuff as well.



-John

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#331993 - 04/01/07 10:33 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I know, we've discussed it before. You say it is a lot easier to control the bigger limbs than it is the small ones correct?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#331994 - 04/01/07 11:30 AM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Thats been MY experience. Not to say that the small joint stuff isn't effective or workable, just that it doesn't work reliably against experienced grapplers.

I've been rolling for some time now. I've rolled with guys who've been experienced in more TMA styles and not so much with BJJ. Many times, these guys (same goes with raw beginners as well) will often panic slightly and start "going with what they know" (read, "foul tactics", hair pulling and everything else -- even though 99 and 9/10s of the time this approach doesn't help them).

Often the first thing they do is try and grab your fingers. I've had this happen so much over the years that I've learned to roll and control position using only my closed fists. Which only means, no small joints to attack. Attacking the wrist of a closed fist doesn't work that well as you might know (with some exceptions; the "top wrist-lock" in catch being one, and that is pretty easily countered).

So experience has just taught me to work for things that are more high percentage against more experienced fighters/grapplers (blues and up). That pretty much leaves out the entire small joint/small circle jits strategy.

Again, much of that can probably work against inexperienced guys / white belts. And perhaps that constitutes most of what one would face in a street fight, etc. But I'm not worried about people who have NO SKILL. I'd be concerned more about folks who can actually fight and present some game.

I'm very skeptical because of the situations in which one might use small joint manipulation:

1. During stand-up when there is no positional control and fists are flying

2. In the clinch when going for SJM is or should be secondary to controlling the body (large joint manipulation)

3. On the ground where you have better control (the ground being an ally) but where against better/more experience grapplers - this will not work and against whom doing so might only invite terrible punishment for even trying.

So I'm left scratching my head about why people place so MUCH emphasis on these things to begin with. But thats just me. To each his own.

For me personally, I enjoy working with folks who attempt such things in training. Its really helped my awareness for such attacks and has shown me how easy they normally are to counter.

I have also worked with guys in the past who try and bite, go for the eyes, pull the hair and attack the groin. They did so because I asked them to (again to develop my awareness of these attacks). And what I discovered over time were again, several things:

1. Against guys who couldn't grapple well (read, didn't work from a functional delivery system), they were as powerless to use these attacks as a baby. Even though they tried, it only ended up getting them in trouble because they had no sense of good posture from which to base their attacks

2. Guys who COULD grapple well, were MUCH more dangerous with biting, eye-gouging, groin attacks and the like - but - still wouldn't often do so because they were more content to play a position based game than an attack-based game. More experienced guys (especially those who are smaller) realize that it's better to keep position than to go for crazy-ass techniques that might only end up putting them right back on the bottom again.

So to make a long story shorter, much of SJM is "ok", but nothing that I'd put a lot of time into. I personally put ZERO time into it because of so many other things that are both easier to execute and are infinitely more "high percentage".

The question becomes, why go the more difficult route when there are easier paths to follow which actually take you to more places, more often, in the end?

But that's just MY opinion. I could be wrong.


-John

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#331995 - 04/01/07 12:53 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good thread, ExCon. Would you mind linking this to the "Consolidated Poll Thread" on the MA Talk forum?

What do you like best?

While I work striking from the clinch on the bag, I haven't done too much stnd-up sparring lately. So, throws/takedowns from the clinch are mostly what I have been using lately.

Striking, what do you like best?

I voted "other" since I don't really know how to qualify what I do, but I guess dirty boxing could be close, too.

Throws/takedowns, what do you like best?

I find that hip throws, reaps and double legs work most reliably for me now.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#331996 - 04/01/07 01:02 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Hereís my $.02 worth

I mostly use finger and thumb locks for breaking the other guys grip. I never use small joint manipulation as a stand alone technique, only as an aid to other techniques.


When clinching with someone you have basically two choices;

1) Pummel your way to an advantageous hold on your opponent so you can strike, throw etc. or

2) Pummel to a strong defensive tie-up so your opponent canít strike or take you down.

If you choose #1 you will probably have a favorite technique or two that you will try for. Thereíre plenty of techniques to choose from.

Imo if you choose #2 the over-under position is the best tie-up to pummel to. Itís an easy to assume position (most common clinch in mma) and a strong defensive position, hard for someone to strike and take you down from.

Imo for a defensively minded person the metzger is the best throw. The metzger is a great counter to headlocks and bear hugs. The over-under tie and the metzger go together like ham and eggs. And when your partner is drilling the metzger you will be drilling the headlock and bearhug throws/takedowns. So by learning the metzger you will have three throws to use from the over-under position. This is the foundation of my clinch game.

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#331997 - 04/01/07 01:05 PM Re: Clinching and self-defense [Re: MattJ]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
From the clinch its all about meeting the pavement hard and with a resounding "Thud".

Striking, I probably should have put Muay Thai after a second thought, though I voted for dirty boxing because i primarily use my hands, but I will kick you, especially after "Thud".

So how do I prefer to get that "thud"?, Well I love to suplex. Belly to belly, belly to back, or just a good ol fashion body slam. I dont know any of the technical terms but I also like to hook my foot around the back of their calve and come down with my weight on them. Randy did it to Tito alot in their fight. Basicall I like a throw or slam that has either alot of elevation, or my weight coming down on top of them, or both.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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