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#331943 - 03/31/07 09:52 PM Silat
Victor Smith Offline
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#331944 - 03/31/07 10:00 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
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Anyone care to comment???


-John

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#331945 - 04/01/07 08:10 AM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
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First one reminded me of Westside Story



Seriously though, they were good "demonstrations" of jurus, and very athletic performances.

As to their martial merit, well, as I have said, the displays were very athletic, so in terms of physical capability (suppleness, muscle twitch fibre size/strength) they have good training.

Some of the jurus are very formal, and of course the tribal representation of indigenous Silat has to be considered. With my small knowledge, experince and conversations with Pencal Silat, jurus are about SD applications in some instances, but are also about more spiritual things in other instances. For example, the development of Tenaga Dalam, which I believe means something like "Inner Power" in Indo-Malay languages. Please correct me if I am wrong!

May I ask John, do you use anything from Pencak Silat in your training? I am aware you have studied it, and was wondering if there is anything you have taken out of it and carried with you.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#331946 - 04/01/07 08:54 AM Re: Silat [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
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I still can hit puter kepala reasonably well.

I trained silat as a part of the "buffet" approach that we had as JKD Concepts training (I did all forms of JKD, from original to concepts to "extra crispy"). I thought it (silat) was pretty fun for a while until I saw Royce Gracie practically running in on guys with his head down and beating them. Then I'm like, "why are we still practicing all of these 'entries' again?" lol.

During the last dozen years, I've just found methods that work a lot better. Much of that stuff I've not even DONE in 12 years. But I might try and slip in a few things here and there and see if I can't pull a few more off.

I'm not going to hold my breath though.


-John

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#331947 - 04/01/07 10:57 AM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
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Sounds somewhat similar to my experience. I took a handful of classes, and regularly attend my local school's seminars (they have two or three per year).

Some of the stuff seemed very interesting. I thought their may be benefit to it in that it has a somewhat unique system of movements, that can, at the very least, be confusing to the uninitiated.

That said, I found some of their drills to be overly complicated. I found myself thinking that there were more straight forward ways to get past someones stand-up defence and take them down, for instance.

I enjoyed their weapon work though, it was good to do at least some knifework (for what it is worth).
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#331948 - 04/01/07 11:49 AM Re: Silat [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
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Yeah their weapons work is ok but I don't place a great deal of emphasis on that sort of thing.

I wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight. I wouldn't even bring a KNIFE to a knife fight. I'd be 300 yards in the other direction.

To each his own though. Playing around with knife vs knife isn't my idea of training. Even with stick vs. stick, it's fun....but I just don't see fights happening this way very often.

Again if a guy pulls a stick and confronts me with it, I'm not going to look around for a stick of my own and say "on guard". I'm going to be a GHOST.

-John

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#331949 - 04/01/07 12:04 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
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Agreed, hence my "For what it is worth". I would run as fast as I could and throw anything to hand at the guy, but getting a perspective on someone trying to slash me with a wooden knife at least gave me a dim impression of what it may be like. Prior to that, I had no idea. And I'd live happily to the end of my days never finding out what it is like!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#331950 - 04/01/07 01:36 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
oldcoach Offline
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 130
Those videos show performances from either competitions or demos.

Within the Silat disciplines, competitions are dvided into two general categories: 1) Silat Olahraga (Competitive Silat) and 2) Silat Seni (Artistic Silat)

Those shown in the videos Victor posted were of Silat Seni. The first video shows one of their "bunga" (kata). The two-men fight scenes are pre-arranged sequences.

That said, Silat (of any "aliran") has some very deceptive moves that would prove very "serious" if trained alive. Those fight sequences take a lot of work. In the weapons sequences, they used real blades and they really hit hard, albeit missing purposely (which makes sense). Takes a lot of coordination and understanding between the exponents.

Silat has many "aliran" (ryu). Aliran means "flow" which has the same meaning of the Chinese character for ryu (liu2). Within those aliran's, there are many "perguruans" (specific styles taught/founded by a guru or guro - teacher).

Different aliran's have different emphases, resulting in different levels of sophistication. However, while the technical sophistication of Silat can produce really formidable fighters, IMHO, their "secret" lies in their "fierce spirit". Silat fighters, at least those who train to fight, are very, very fierce. I have met many Malay silat fighters and they're virtually fearless.

Whether it's got to do with their race or not, I can't say, but the Malay people (as some writers put it and as the locals know it) are friendly people. But when provoked, they're absolutely FIERCE.

As for blade-fighting, one of the most common weapons used in real fights (whether one-to-one or gang-to-gang or in robberies) is the parang (machete). The people who uses parang's in fights think nothing of "chopping" the enemy (King Leonidas and the Spartans would have loved these guys)

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#331951 - 04/01/07 01:54 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
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Many forms of silat emphasize ground fighting.

I'm betting a good blue (in BJJ) could SMOKE many a silat grand master when rolling.

Again, just my opinion. As always, I could be wrong (but I doubt it).


-John

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#331952 - 04/01/07 02:07 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
oldcoach Offline
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 130
A good boxer could smoke them too, if he knows WHEN and HOW to catch them
Quote:

Many forms of silat emphasize ground fighting.

I'm betting a good blue (in BJJ) could SMOKE many a silat grand master when rolling.

Again, just my opinion. As always, I could be wrong (but I doubt it).


-John



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#331953 - 04/01/07 02:14 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldcoach]
JKogas Offline
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Yes, I agree. Either one of them could smoke a silat guy in my opinion.



-John

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#331954 - 04/01/07 02:21 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
oldcoach Offline
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 130
Excuse my ignorance John, but what's the progression in BJJ's belt system?
Quote:

Many forms of silat emphasize ground fighting.

I'm betting a good blue (in BJJ) could SMOKE many a silat grand master when rolling.

Again, just my opinion. As always, I could be wrong (but I doubt it).


-John



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#331955 - 04/01/07 02:33 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldcoach]
JKogas Offline
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White, blue, purple, brown, black.



-John

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#331956 - 04/01/07 08:50 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
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Loc: Derry, NH
John,

It's relative. Practioniers of the hundreds of Indonesian Silat systems aren't really practicing because they're worried about BJJ overunning their islands.

Their traditions are very wide ranging and mostly very secret. The public performance shows an aspect of their movement potential and nothing more.

The manner of their application potential might be similar or very different from what others are doing.

How effective are those traditions? Some of them were used in the jungles during WWII against the Japanese, and in the more intense fighting against the Dutch after WWII.

I know they draw their own conclusions and follow their own paths.

It is interesting to be able to see today so much that was impossible to see in the past.

I've only had a slight exposure to tjimande under an Indonesian instructor, but remain impressed at the potential I saw.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#331957 - 04/01/07 09:36 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
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Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

John,

It's relative. Practioniers of the hundreds of Indonesian Silat systems aren't really practicing because they're worried about BJJ overunning their islands.





You’re right about that. You have firearms for that sort of thing anymore really. They SHOULDN’T be practicing because they’re worried about ANYONE overrunning their islands.


Quote:


Their traditions are very wide ranging and mostly very secret. The public performance shows an aspect of their movement potential and nothing more.

The manner of their application potential might be similar or very different from what others are doing..





Fair enough. But I’ll say this much, MANY people with direct experience with long time silat masters essentially share my opinion. It’s really common sense.

I’ve practiced silat. Many others have as well. The training methods simply aren’t functional as I, and others have experienced it. Maybe that’s just the “white man’s” silat we’ve been taught. Unfortunately, it’s also the sort that Inosanto teaches as well. I just happen to not buy into the methods.


Quote:


How effective are those traditions? Some of them were used in the jungles during WWII against the Japanese, and in the more intense fighting against the Dutch after WWII.





Lets just talk training methods and leave tradition out of it. Training methods create the fighter. Jurus do not a fighter make. Neither do kata or any other pattern practiced without aliveness.

I don’t particularly care to see how “someone’s grandfather fought against someone else’s grandfather” a long time ago. I care about right now. Right now, they aren’t going to beat very many. That's just my opinion.


Quote:


I know they draw their own conclusions and follow their own paths.

It is interesting to be able to see today so much that was impossible to see in the past.

I've only had a slight exposure to tjimande under an Indonesian instructor, but remain impressed at the potential I saw.





That’s all well and good Victor. I just have my own opinion. To each his own really. I’d love to roll with one of those guys. Just for my own experience.


-John

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#331958 - 04/01/07 09:46 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
John,

The reality of political thought reflects in the dangerousness of Indonesian life even today. I can only speculate why they practice, but I doubt in Indonesia it's for art's sake.

From my experience they don't divorce their training from their arts past experiences. It's easy for us to dismiss WWII as the past, but they were conquered too many times and the continual uprising violence has more than a little to do with their ongoing tradition.

I see their art more as a blade tradition that utilizes the empty hand training for their blade studies.

In almost all of their traditions we will not be welcome, they're for their home, village or private group, public performance not withstanding.

Whether good or bad, it's more the Indonesian reality.

As for the Juru's I agree they have nothing to do with fighting. The little I've been exposed to are more basic movement training for the physical movement alone. Perhaps the tjimande traditions I was shown are different from others.

I just remain interested, seeing some of the intersection of what I've experienced.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#331959 - 04/01/07 10:27 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
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I agree with the notion of silat as being primarily a "blade art". That's how I've always seen it. I certainly wouldn't want to engage one of those guys in a knife duel. Then again, I wouldn't engage a TWELVE year old in a knife duel.

I was merely speaking of their empty hand prowess and grappling skill.


-John

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#331960 - 04/02/07 12:52 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

I agree with the notion of silat as being primarily a "blade art". -John




I too concur with that. If there is any merit to be had in most Silat, it is with the weapons work IMO.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#331961 - 04/02/07 01:04 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
oldcoach Offline
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 130
Quote:

In almost all of their traditions we will not be welcome, they're for their home, village or private group, public performance not withstanding.



In Malaysia, even locals wo are non-Malays find it hard to be accepted for training.

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#331962 - 04/02/07 09:51 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldcoach]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
In many ways the use of the term Silat is as generic as is the word Karate. There are so many systems and reasons.

Except for these public displays, most of them are focused on the family, the group and the locale (ie village). The studies are not for exercise but for use, in the original intent.

I've tracked a little bit of the news on Indonesia these years and you learn to read between the lines. The group combat, the tales of magicians attacking others, and the fact that random violence in Indonesia sometimes isn't random.

I have no idea how effective these arts would be in contest against other arts, but the little I have been shown is based on a simple premise, what is pubically seen has absolutely nothing to do with the art, except a means to show basic movement dynamics.

The clips I shared do seem to show very interesting body dynamics. I believe their original intent has absolutely nothing to do with contest and winning. I believe they are as much an offensive art as a defensive one.

So there are the open Silat teachings (from Dutch sources and from a few Indonesians), and there are the closed Silat teachings.

I wonder if it makes much sense to try and understand them in the light of most of our own arts?
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#331963 - 04/02/07 10:04 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
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Am I understanding what you're saying here? That the "closed" silat teachings are different than the "open" silat teachings?

Are you also implying that the "closed" silat teachings contain more, effective or, secret techniques and teachings?

How would the open teachings perhaps differ from the closed teachings, in your opinion?


-John

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#331964 - 04/02/07 10:40 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
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John,

I'm sure I'm not using the best words for this, but what I call the open teachings are the basic movement studies. The closed teachings were the applications and in the art I studied they had nothing to do with the movement studies.

Thus if you watched the juru, you could not guess what the actual studies (which were only shared and practiced in private) were. The juru beyond the movement education were simply mnemonic devices for strings of different techniques.

I have no idea if other siliat traditions do the same or not. Likely there are many different paths within Silat.

In Indonesia membership in the group training, which I saw a little, was only opened when a member was deceased. That really keeps that group close. It was all a closed tradition, but the basic drills were just that, basics and the art was different.

I see glimpses of some of my instructors techniques within the video clips, but I haven't found anything remotely the same as his art.

Then again I'm not a Silat practitioner, too old and rigid when I began those studies, but what I did study is extremely effective and I keep them up.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#331965 - 04/02/07 10:52 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
John.
Is'nt it more like..

White 3 stripes

Blue 14 stripes

Purple 42 stripes

Brown and then


NOT NVER... black





I'm jes plAyin wid ya

BTW I've never asked. Do you hold rank in BJJ?

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#331966 - 04/02/07 11:37 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldman]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

John.
Is'nt it more like..

White 3 stripes

Blue 14 stripes

Purple 42 stripes

Brown and then


NOT NVER... black








Something like that, yes.


Quote:


BTW I've never asked. Do you hold rank in BJJ?




No, I have no belt rank in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. But as I never wear a gi, I have no belt to wear anyway. And not many folks rank you "no-gi".

I'll get over my aversion to the gi one day and wear one long enough to see where I rank. Otherwise I'm not into the whole "colored belt" thing. It's kind of goofy in a way and in a way it isn't.

As far as where I stand, I would put myself at "purple" if I had to guess. I've rolled with a boatload of blues and purples, one brown belt and a couple of black belts.

I've handled most of the blues I've rolled with and have hung with many purples. The one brown made me wear a gi and ate my lunch. The black belts basically toyed with me, lol Wouldn't have mattered WHAT I wore...

I'm really not at that much into the belt rank thing or I'd have done something about it right now. I guess since I've just come up more as a wrestler, I've always stayed with that mindset. I understand the BJJ game completely and adhere to that approach. But I probably couldn't do SQUAT in a kimono if my very LIFE depended on it.


-John

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#331967 - 04/05/07 05:28 AM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
DasaMan Offline
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Registered: 10/01/04
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Quote:

The reality of political thought reflects in the dangerousness of Indonesian life even today. I can only speculate why they practice, but I doubt in Indonesia it's for art's sake.




Hello, I'm from Indonesia. Don't mind me sharing my Rp2.

It's nice to see that some romanticised idea on silat practice is still around, but truth to be told, in urban areas, silat is pretty much marginalised these days. Old, antiquated, irrelevant.

Like most places, people are starting to look into MMA. The relative few that practice silat do it either because they don't have access to any other art or out of the drive to preserve silat as cultural legacy.

This is of course, the cynical city boy view of the matter.

On the other hand, my Judo/Sambo instructor highly touts silat entries as effective for kumi kata, gi or no gi. It doesn't hurt that he is that close to being the headmaster of a certain silat style.

-- Dimas S.

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#331968 - 05/06/07 06:14 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
Wali Offline
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Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 5
Loc: London
Let's not over-generalise. The Satria Fighting Arts we pracrtice (Incorporating the WaliSongo silat), has a ground game on par with any BJJ school. We regularly roll with BJJ guys and give an excellent account.

I realise that a lot of silat in the US has lost a lot of the ground game, but in some schools abroad, this is very important.

The ground has it's place, but it's not the end all of all fighting. We don't even have to use the old "Battlefield Art" adage. The ground game for example, would be totally useless in a mass brawl in any modern city today.

For anyone interested (all styles), we'll be hosting a series of seminars in LA in the next month, and one of them will specifically be ground fighting and grappling (The silat way). You'll be amazed at how similar a lot of it is to BJJ. Our Kura-Kura (turtle), is very similar to the traditional 'Guard' position, etc, etc... At the end of the day, the body can only move and position itself into so many postures.

Cheers,
Wali

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#331969 - 05/20/07 05:03 PM Re: Silat [Re: Wali]
Boomer Offline
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Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Quote:

The ground has it's place, but it's not the end all of all fighting. We don't even have to use the old "Battlefield Art" adage. The ground game for example, would be totally useless in a mass brawl in any modern city today.





Well said.
_________________________
Calling yourself "Master" implies that you have slaves.

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#331970 - 05/26/07 05:18 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldcoach]
shantungks Offline
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Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 38
You guys are judging silat from sport perpective. True silat is not trained nor practice for sport. !5 years ago a blue belt in BJJ walked into a silat school. Lets just say he was lucky could even walk. all it took was 10 seconds and his neck was almost snapped. In the U.S. there are very few true silat teachers and they do not teach openly. Up to this date only 4 do but not everything. Many years they have taught, only one or two students have finished their curriculum.
Royce Gracie is good, but not that good. They are places in Indonesia where they would be glad to take on any world champion and of course place their skull next to the rest of their collection of throphies. Out of the whole Gracie Family only Rickson could actually survive a very good Silat fighter. He has the look and will of a warrior. By silat fighter I mean someone who has trained very hard that knows what is like to break or have a broken bone and has trained long hours. Not someone who goes and trains twice a week at some building.

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#331971 - 05/26/07 05:46 PM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
shantungks Offline
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Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 38

Before 1950 Silat was still practice for what it was meant to be and that to kill as fast as possible not to score a take down or a point. Today in Indonesia is mostly sport Silat that you see. True or old silat can be found still in very remote areas. I know of an area near Kendang Mountain were you might find some still. Many were kill in the 60s during the rise of civil wars. Many fled to Holland ans some are in the U.S. One has better odds of finding a teacher of real silat in the U.S. Not anyone can take the training and therefore not everyone even goes pass 3 years of training with them. They usually trian in their house or some isolated area or a basement.

But is not the forms, jurus, langkas but how you train. I know at least 5 silat practioners that can handle themselves against anyone from any style. Rolling with someone sounds like sport competition. That is like me sparring with foam knives againts a Sayoc teacher. Roll is to play around and in a fight only one walks away alive. This is the reason true or real silat is not taught openly. No games, no BS. True silat involves hours of combat with no protection and understanding of the forms. Within this training there is a lot of learning about the human body, both is strengths and weaknesses. A lot of body conditioning to the point when the day you can sink your fingers into a coconut there is nothing else you cannot stick them into.
My opinion and my own personal experience. I cannot sink my fingers into a coconut yet but I know many angles and methods to snap the bones in the body and to tear ligaments away within seconds. Also I was taught how to repair them. This is true Silat.
About Dan Inosanto he is not a closed door student. He was and is taught by the best but he is not a closed door student. He can roll if that is what you want. But fight? Fighting is for kids.

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#331972 - 05/27/07 10:35 AM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I recently ran across the following two silat video's that in part resemble the training I had with Tristan Sutrsno.

Silat Harimau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfF7llJxDFc
Harimau Silat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trNrT1hXb-4

They are what they are, a visit of one layer of this training.


Edited by Victor Smith (05/27/07 10:36 AM)
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#331973 - 05/27/07 10:53 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Victor,
Thank Silat.

Sorry

Couldn't help myself.

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#331974 - 05/29/07 05:51 AM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
shantungks Offline
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Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 38
The techniques are good. Yes they seem to not have a lot of practice yet but they perform well. Harimau is a very good style. Very very effective for any type of situations.

The importance is how you practice. We do combat at least once a week and sometimes more at fast speed, no protection and no rules. We just try to make sure the other guy can go to work or school the next day.

And for those who are about to say"It wont work in the UFC!" Well the UFC is a sport not a street attack or Death or Life situation. It has rules, many rules. I have practice with people that fight in cages. They soften up their silat techniques for the cage. There is no eye gouging or biting or striking certain dangerous zones. The UFC or PRIDE has rules by which each fighter abides and his training revolves around it. One fights the way you practice. This has got to do a lot with proprioception. Yes a guy from the UFC could possibly kill a guy with one punch just like any white belt could possibly do so. The UFC has a lot of experience in duel or rule matches but is very different training for combat. In combat your goal is to train to destroy or injure your opppnent almost immediately. Which this is the main and true purpose of Silat. True Silat does not focus on submitting. In True Silat not sport Silat, when you put someone in a submission he or she probably is already badly hurt. In UFC most grapplers try to clinch and take down. You cannot eye gouge or bite or rip in the UFC therefore fighters go for the takedown without having to worry to cover their eyes, neck or groin or the inside or their arms. So please if someone has to say something about this would not work in the cage, please try to fight without rules and protection than talk. But fight with good technique not just like barbrawl style.

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#331975 - 06/03/07 04:40 AM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Agreed.

While some folks say that they've heard of someone representing Silat badly in an early UFC, I have never seen the Silat that I know in any competition ever. Real Silat has no sport aspect, short of some sparring in very controlled conditions.

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#331976 - 06/03/07 09:20 AM Re: Silat [Re: Jim_Judy]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Using the UFC is a sport excuse could be viewed as a false premise.

I mean, you still have to TRAIN don't you? You do SPAR don't you?

One thing you guys forget is that the rules in the UFC are the same for EVERYONE. Sort of deflates the argument doesn't it?


-John

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#331977 - 06/04/07 04:21 AM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Not really. No.

Here are the main points that tend to "inflate the argument".

***************
UFC RULES


Weight classes:
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

Bout duration:
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

Fouls:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Ways To Win:
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision.
Split decision.
Majority decision.
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.


Referee may Restart the round:
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish.

*****************

If you can't see the diff, then you are truly lost in some MMA Fantasyland. Good luck with your sport.


Edited by Jim_Judy (06/04/07 04:24 AM)

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#331978 - 06/04/07 02:03 PM Re: Silat [Re: Jim_Judy]
shantungks Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 38
JKogas,But sparring with rules and WITHOUT rules is a world of a difference. Imagine someone whos main technique is clawing or ripping, MMA does not alloewd that and the gloves restrict you a lot. The rules are the same for EVERYONE WHO FIGHTS IN THE UFC and for he who TRAINS for the UFC or PRIDE not for someone who trains to destroy o incapacitate inmediately an opponent such as in life or death situation. If you take more 5 seconds to incapacitate someone in a life or death situation you are in serios trouble.

MMA is NOT the ultimate way for fighting for a tournament of that sort yes or maybe even a bar brawl not for anything beyond that.

In the above post Jim_Judy wrote some of the fouls. The first 13 I do without even thinking about it. And from 14 to 21 if giving the chance I will do them.
The rules apply to everyone and therefore he who becomes great fighting under those conditions will do great in those fights.
We do spar but when we spar is not just punch, punch, kick, kick and take down. We use anything and everything and that is how we get use to sparring and fighting. You think people that train like that will do great in the UFC or PRIDE. Bitting the neck givs a great advantage on someone who clinchis keeps their body close to you while your hands and legs are opne for what ever. If it tears off you can stick your finger in there and stimulate the Vagus nerve and carotid receptors very nicely. Stomping comes to me by reflex. dont even think about out. I am good fighter, will I make it in the UFC? Maybe if I train with those limitations and get use my brain for that type of sparring.
Oyeah for us technique is very very important in order for an application to work and weight or size should not be a limiting factor.


Edited by shantungks (06/04/07 02:20 PM)

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#331979 - 06/05/07 09:15 PM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
azhar Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1
Hi,
First of all please forgive me if certain words/sentences used might give some bad intrepration to some of you, my English is not really good. I'm Azhar, a Malay guy from Malaysia. I learn Silat was I was 14 till 23 years olds stop for almost 11 years, this years I return back to my "gelanggang" (Dojo / Training Ring). I've learn a little bit of TKD (ITF), Kung-Fu Sanda and others Silat style.
After married for 11 years I put on weight almost 100kgs and my cardiologist gave me 3 months to rectified the defect...so back to the gelanggang.
In the early stage of my Silat adventure, I was so curious about how effective and practicable Silat is, compared to Kung-Fu, TKD and Karate...So I start to learn fatal strike (silat- that time I'm only 3rd belt) and make some experimence. I join TKD very fequent I do spar with my master and a few black belt (in TKD ITF Rule). Supplied with a tough and robust + painfull training including the spirit of Pendekar I beat them all (except my master....), they all knew i was a Silat Boy and they always think twice when sparring with me...God, time goes by and i have a wonderful experience with them (TKD)...after 2 years in TKD I realize that what ever style you learn the result is back to you...My TKD Master told me ...as time goes by in learning martial arts...you will raelize that martial Arts Traing is just a form of exercise.
Back to Silat....yes most of the videos that you watch seem not really convicing. Actually its very hard to explain silat, there is a few stages in silat
1. Basic kicking and punching - most of Silat style lack of this - reason for me to learn TKD (beautiful movement)
2. Basic blocking.
3. Death lock
4. Combat
5. Fatal strike
6. Secret strike (highest level)
1~ 6 is only ment for hand fighting

In fighting kicking and punching goes first followed by either fatal strike or combat. This fatal stike and combat should be deliver witihn 2~6 second...6 second seem tooo long ehhh. No itsn't..the secret of death lock, fatal strike and combat was the first strike landed to the attacker. If this strike was delivered correctly, the attacker will be paralyze or its buy you all the time or total control to your attacker.

I think that all this time, only able to answer you all in 3 days.

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#331980 - 06/05/07 10:29 PM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by shantungks -

Quote:

Bitting the neck givs a great advantage on someone who clinchis keeps their body close to you while your hands and legs are opne for what ever. If it tears off you can stick your finger in there and stimulate the Vagus nerve and carotid receptors very nicely.




Oh. My. God.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#331981 - 06/06/07 03:07 AM Re: Silat [Re: MattJ]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Well, that definitely violates Rule#3: No Biting, & Rule#7: Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.

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#331982 - 06/06/07 11:18 PM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

Bitting the neck givs a great advantage on someone who clinchis keeps their body close to you while your hands and legs are opne for what ever. If it tears off you can stick your finger in there and stimulate the Vagus nerve and carotid receptors very nicely




Have you ever seen the vagus nerve? I can almost guarantee you have never seen a carotid receptor.

.... On second thought, I'll just keep my mouth shut.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#331983 - 06/09/07 05:51 PM Re: Silat [Re: Saisho]
shantungks Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 38
Hello Saisho,
Yes I have seen a Vagus nerve many times. Held it in my hands many times and I know very well its complete tract in the human body. All the way from where it exits in the cranium to what inervates outside the cranium. The vagus (X)nerve is the longest cranial pair and fullfills many functions in the human body. Part of it's innervartion is the respiratory system cardiovascular system. So you see now all the things you can do when you push on it or even strike the area where it's more expose. The carotid receptors I have never seen them due to them been so small that only the area can be seen through a microscope but I know very well what their main function is and where they are located and the results on the human body when you hit them or stimulate them.

True Silat not sport silat was and is very efective. some say is only a jungle style and does not work in the street. Very stupid comment if I do say so myself. Silat was and continued to developed under constant battles between villages and when Indonesia was invaded by the Dutch and Japanese. The style continued to evolved to fight tall and strong opponents like the dutch. True Silat is very free flowing and not rigid in its practice. So if Silat was effective in war situations it can still work anywhere even on the streets.Specially how you get train to handle the knife. If I had to fight more than one opponent on the street I would rather know how to fight standing up and with a style which my brain has already memorize its movements very well and with effective techniques. Even against one I would prefer to fight standing up. True Silat has great techniques on the ground and standing up. Therefore it has great counters for going to the ground. Specially Cimande, Sera and Harimau.

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#331984 - 06/10/07 12:20 AM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
That is great. Not many people have the opportunity to see such structures. So you understand when I say that if you have cut far enough into the neck to reach the Vagus (by the trachea and vertebral column), you have done more damage than pressing on the nerve. You will have already cut the Phrenic and shut off the diaphragm. You also most likely severed the External and Internal Carotids.

You are correct, the carotid bodies are microscopic and they are located in the junction of the common carotid branching into the internal and external. Again, if you have cut that far to be able to press on them, the person has bigger worries.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#331985 - 06/11/07 03:40 PM Re: Silat [Re: Saisho]
shantungks Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 38
Saisho, Yes i understand the body fairly well part of that comes from my martial arts training and some from my education. But what I am trying to get across is that there is a big difference between sport silat and Old silat and competition. Thinking that what one sees at the UFC or PRIDE is the ultimate way of fighting or reaching that level of fighting is the highest is a little bit off. Hardly does anyone do any type of body conditioning anymore like they use to be. If you did not have your knife your fingers could accomplish part of the job. Now days few know how and do condition their fingers. Imagine using your well conditioned fingers to jab the abdomen or neck?
The skin in the neck is tought and somewhat flexible but practicing and knowing how to bite, one can get the job done. I know what I write sounds very violent but this is the reality of old silat and some of the old chinese styles of fighting. This is the reason there arent many teachers left because few want to train this way.
When someone says that this styles dont work in the street they have no idea what their talking about. How can a style that has been used in fights with sharp weapons, against one or more opponents not be effective in today's street violence or when needed in hand-to-hand combat during warfare? How it cannot work? Maybe because not many are willing to stand the hard training that old silat is known for and see and feel is true results.Also few have tha patience to learn. I have tasted only the tip of the iceberg of that type of training and is hard very hard but very effective for no rules or combat fighting. True, very true it might not work in the CAGE or RING, I truly agree because for one, true silat is not ment for sport and second in order for someone to use silat in the UFC or RING he or she has to be very but very good where they would not have to seriously hurt their opponent to win. But once you reached that level why would you like to enter a sports tournament? Many of those in that level they have nothing to prove to anyone by fighting in those tournaments and they believe fighting is for kids. Yes they will take on any challenge but the fight wont be with plastic knives or with padded gloves or nice mats or under the UFC rules or any rule. Those fights only last a few seconds and one falls badly damage. This is what I have seen and this is what I have been told.

This is good old silat!! Not the diluted form of Silat that Indonesia is trying to promote now days just like Japan did with karate and Korea with TKD. Soem of this styles have been diluted a lot to be socially acceptable and profitable not for effectiveness.

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#331986 - 06/11/07 10:38 PM Re: Silat [Re: shantungks]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

what I am trying to get across is that there is a big difference between sport silat and Old silat and competition




No arguements here

Quote:

Thinking that what one sees at the UFC or PRIDE is the ultimate way of fighting or reaching that level of fighting is the highest is a little bit off




Or here (although I would say a lot off)

Quote:

This is the reason there arent many teachers left because few want to train this way




Still nothing

Quote:

When someone says that this styles dont work in the street they have no idea what their talking about




Why didn't you just say so?
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#331987 - 06/12/07 11:23 AM Re: Silat [Re: Saisho]
shantungks Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 38
I know I should just have said so.

How many arts here have been or were used in battles or used by body guards and are considered traditional or old?

Pakua was the favorite martial art of the bodyguards of the chinese emperors. Some practitioners learned how to make the gun part of their fighting techniques. They would fight multiple attackers but when a weapon was drawn they would out of no-where pull out the gun.

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