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#331953 - 04/01/07 02:14 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldcoach]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Yes, I agree. Either one of them could smoke a silat guy in my opinion.



-John

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#331954 - 04/01/07 02:21 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
oldcoach Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 130
Excuse my ignorance John, but what's the progression in BJJ's belt system?
Quote:

Many forms of silat emphasize ground fighting.

I'm betting a good blue (in BJJ) could SMOKE many a silat grand master when rolling.

Again, just my opinion. As always, I could be wrong (but I doubt it).


-John



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#331955 - 04/01/07 02:33 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldcoach]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
White, blue, purple, brown, black.



-John

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#331956 - 04/01/07 08:50 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
John,

It's relative. Practioniers of the hundreds of Indonesian Silat systems aren't really practicing because they're worried about BJJ overunning their islands.

Their traditions are very wide ranging and mostly very secret. The public performance shows an aspect of their movement potential and nothing more.

The manner of their application potential might be similar or very different from what others are doing.

How effective are those traditions? Some of them were used in the jungles during WWII against the Japanese, and in the more intense fighting against the Dutch after WWII.

I know they draw their own conclusions and follow their own paths.

It is interesting to be able to see today so much that was impossible to see in the past.

I've only had a slight exposure to tjimande under an Indonesian instructor, but remain impressed at the potential I saw.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#331957 - 04/01/07 09:36 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

John,

It's relative. Practioniers of the hundreds of Indonesian Silat systems aren't really practicing because they're worried about BJJ overunning their islands.





You’re right about that. You have firearms for that sort of thing anymore really. They SHOULDN’T be practicing because they’re worried about ANYONE overrunning their islands.


Quote:


Their traditions are very wide ranging and mostly very secret. The public performance shows an aspect of their movement potential and nothing more.

The manner of their application potential might be similar or very different from what others are doing..





Fair enough. But I’ll say this much, MANY people with direct experience with long time silat masters essentially share my opinion. It’s really common sense.

I’ve practiced silat. Many others have as well. The training methods simply aren’t functional as I, and others have experienced it. Maybe that’s just the “white man’s” silat we’ve been taught. Unfortunately, it’s also the sort that Inosanto teaches as well. I just happen to not buy into the methods.


Quote:


How effective are those traditions? Some of them were used in the jungles during WWII against the Japanese, and in the more intense fighting against the Dutch after WWII.





Lets just talk training methods and leave tradition out of it. Training methods create the fighter. Jurus do not a fighter make. Neither do kata or any other pattern practiced without aliveness.

I don’t particularly care to see how “someone’s grandfather fought against someone else’s grandfather” a long time ago. I care about right now. Right now, they aren’t going to beat very many. That's just my opinion.


Quote:


I know they draw their own conclusions and follow their own paths.

It is interesting to be able to see today so much that was impossible to see in the past.

I've only had a slight exposure to tjimande under an Indonesian instructor, but remain impressed at the potential I saw.





That’s all well and good Victor. I just have my own opinion. To each his own really. I’d love to roll with one of those guys. Just for my own experience.


-John

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#331958 - 04/01/07 09:46 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
John,

The reality of political thought reflects in the dangerousness of Indonesian life even today. I can only speculate why they practice, but I doubt in Indonesia it's for art's sake.

From my experience they don't divorce their training from their arts past experiences. It's easy for us to dismiss WWII as the past, but they were conquered too many times and the continual uprising violence has more than a little to do with their ongoing tradition.

I see their art more as a blade tradition that utilizes the empty hand training for their blade studies.

In almost all of their traditions we will not be welcome, they're for their home, village or private group, public performance not withstanding.

Whether good or bad, it's more the Indonesian reality.

As for the Juru's I agree they have nothing to do with fighting. The little I've been exposed to are more basic movement training for the physical movement alone. Perhaps the tjimande traditions I was shown are different from others.

I just remain interested, seeing some of the intersection of what I've experienced.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#331959 - 04/01/07 10:27 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I agree with the notion of silat as being primarily a "blade art". That's how I've always seen it. I certainly wouldn't want to engage one of those guys in a knife duel. Then again, I wouldn't engage a TWELVE year old in a knife duel.

I was merely speaking of their empty hand prowess and grappling skill.


-John

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#331960 - 04/02/07 12:52 PM Re: Silat [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

I agree with the notion of silat as being primarily a "blade art". -John




I too concur with that. If there is any merit to be had in most Silat, it is with the weapons work IMO.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#331961 - 04/02/07 01:04 PM Re: Silat [Re: Victor Smith]
oldcoach Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 130
Quote:

In almost all of their traditions we will not be welcome, they're for their home, village or private group, public performance not withstanding.



In Malaysia, even locals wo are non-Malays find it hard to be accepted for training.

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#331962 - 04/02/07 09:51 PM Re: Silat [Re: oldcoach]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
In many ways the use of the term Silat is as generic as is the word Karate. There are so many systems and reasons.

Except for these public displays, most of them are focused on the family, the group and the locale (ie village). The studies are not for exercise but for use, in the original intent.

I've tracked a little bit of the news on Indonesia these years and you learn to read between the lines. The group combat, the tales of magicians attacking others, and the fact that random violence in Indonesia sometimes isn't random.

I have no idea how effective these arts would be in contest against other arts, but the little I have been shown is based on a simple premise, what is pubically seen has absolutely nothing to do with the art, except a means to show basic movement dynamics.

The clips I shared do seem to show very interesting body dynamics. I believe their original intent has absolutely nothing to do with contest and winning. I believe they are as much an offensive art as a defensive one.

So there are the open Silat teachings (from Dutch sources and from a few Indonesians), and there are the closed Silat teachings.

I wonder if it makes much sense to try and understand them in the light of most of our own arts?
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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