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#330395 - 03/23/07 12:53 PM Stomach 5
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I want to revisit the excellent line of threads started by Gavin King, the former moderator of this forum. I just want to simplify his posts a bit to better match the interests of those who are reading the PP forum these days, as it seems from those who post.

The first "pressure point of the week" will be St 5. It is easy to locate. Trace your finger along the lower edge of your bottom jaw. About 1/2 way back, you will feel a hole in the bone. This is St 5. You can hit it up and in towards the center of the skull, or down and in like towards the base of the neck on the other side.

A KO is possible if the point is either hit hard enough, or properly set up. Therefore, be sure you have supervision from someone knowledgeable in revivals, or that you have been passed off on revivals by your own instructor. In practice, we generally don't practice for the KO. We look for a buzz or electrical sensation at least a few times so that torre can know he is hitting it correctly. The rest of the time, we just tap lightly to develop accuracy in motion.

If there is a KO, and the revivals are not done, you run the risk of having uke have a lingering headache for the rest of the day, or nausea. You do not want to do this to your friend.

This point is very easy to find, and pretty easy to hit in back and forth drills.

Try it, and post back about your success and what combinations you are using it with. Have fun.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#330396 - 03/01/08 06:13 PM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: underdog]
1qazxcvbnm Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 1
I cant find the hole. Is it a deep hole or is it just a little dip. I cant find either at any rate. Please help.

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#330397 - 03/01/08 10:16 PM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: 1qazxcvbnm]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
It's not all that deep. It's usually more of a depression than a hole. You should be able to feel a change in the contour of the jaw.

Here's another way to find it.

Start at the back of the jaw, placing your finger on the corner of the jaw bone. You can safely play with some pressure there. Then 1-2 finger widths forward (depending on the size of your jaw bone)

Or you can start at the corner of your mouth and run your finger down and back at an angle.

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#330398 - 03/02/08 07:10 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: underdog]
kyushoperson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 12
Loc: North England
Hi,

ST5 is not in a hole, it is a nerve which lies in a groove under the jaw.

Hitting the jaw anywhere hard can get you a concussive KO.

The art is in how you hit the point, not how hard.


tc

Helen


Edited by kyushoperson (03/02/08 07:22 AM)

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#330399 - 03/02/08 10:20 PM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: kyushoperson]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
I just punched myself in the jaw at said spot, didn't do anything
_________________________
"always paddle your own canoe." - Cord

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#330400 - 03/02/08 10:59 PM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: Spade]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
lol...entertaining thread guys/gals. I'm thinking, you could learn the meridian maps, study how energy flows, be aware of what time of day does what, learn the meridians to activate in rescussitation, learn precise points along the pathways, etc...

-OR- just train how to do this:

hit 'em in the chin hard when they are open for it.


but don't let me derail. I believe where the thread left off before my interruption was a forum member was just about to tell you why a light-tap KO can't be performed on yourself.

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#330401 - 03/03/08 12:32 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: Ed_Morris]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

-OR- just train how to do this:

hit 'em in the chin hard when they are open for it.





Learn to do this first. It takes a lot less time and you are more likely to accomplish the goal.

Then, learn the meridians, etc. It's fun and interesting knowledge to have. But not so practical.
Take the original responder. Nothing personal against him - but he couldn't even sit down and find the point on his own jaw. How is he supposed to find it on an attacker in the heat of a fight? The thing is that - he won't. Not only he won't but 99.9% of the people who take the pressure point seminars will not. Maybe more than that.

Even in massage, where the patient is lying still, you have to feel around and zero in on the points. They are not in the exact same spot on everyone. Close, but you almost never just go directly to them.

This kind of training is best done in the environment of the healing arts. Not only for the purposes of a better, more complete education, but for safety.

Once you are well grounded in basic self defense and have a real understanding of these points, then you can move onto learning more advanced martial arts and more complicated self defense applications.

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#330402 - 03/03/08 05:21 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: underdog]
kyushoperson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 12
Loc: North England
Hi

PP's work but you have to have a solid fighting background to be able to work them in a realistic situation.

Trouble is most 'teachers' dont have this.

The last moderator on here was a beginner in PP's but was a moderator, he argued all the time for useing the time of the day, diurnal cycles, etc etc.

He left here when he realised he was wrong lol.


Now he tells people that stuff is bunkum he should have found that out before becoming a moderator.

The current mod, who is female by the way, thinks ST5 is in a hole when it is in the facial artery groove.

And people wonder why it is hard for people to work or learn this?

Misinformation, disinformation, no street fighting experience.

tc

H


Edited by kyushoperson (03/03/08 05:25 AM)

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#330403 - 03/03/08 09:06 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: kyushoperson]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I was the previous moderator. I know very well that the point is NOT the hole, but the nerve. My instruction was to help a person find the nerve. The nerve can be found in, and coming out of, the hole. It is a foramen. A foramen is a hole in a bone. Nerves and blood vessels go through these holes.

I am female. I do not pay any attention to diurnal cycle or many other things that people sometimes think are necessary but are not. I do not fight in the street however I have used my martial arts and Kyusho skills occaisionally during my career as a psychiatric nurse where I regretably sometimes have to take care of and defend myself and others from violent patients. I realize this is not the street, however, it is real. It also means that I have a duty of care towards the attacker and whenever possible, I can do no harm. I need to hold and contain rather than counter attack. Kyusho, especially Kyusho applications in tuite and grappling, are very well suited to this kind of work. Fortunately, I train more in deescalation techniques and most of the time, that keeps us from needing to use physical applications. I would be a little cautious about studying with someone with "a lot" of street experience because I'd wonder about his/her judgement. However, thank you for taking my inventory. I would have thought that my posts speak for themselves but if not, then thank you for setting the record straight. I'm sure you know best.

I am sure I don't have your qualifications in either Kyusho or martial arts generally, but if you want my qualifications, it is mostly that I was the only person studying Kyusho seriously that was willing to moderate when Gavin King gave up moderatorship of this forum. I had been his co-mod. Gavin was an excellent moderator. I do not have his skills and the frustrations of moderating eventually got to me, because it is a rough world in a free forum with trolls insulting and challenging rather regularly. They contribute little, criticize much, and make people feel awkward for trying to help others.

Moderators are not obligated or expected to be experts. They are just there to keep law and order essentially. They are just members first, moderators second. However, if it mattters, I am a Nidan in my martial arts style which is American-Te, a kind of Kenpo. I am ranked PL 1 by Evan Pantazi in Kyusho International. Evan Pantazi is one of my instructors. My other instructors are ranked PL 3 by Evan Pantazi. Evan teaches the PL class. The PLs teach the lower levels in Kyusho. Kyusho is integrated into everything a black belt does in my school.

If my post lacked the specificity you were looking for, it is because it was written for the beginner like the poor guy who can't find his own St 5 or the guy who hasn't figured out that it is very difficult to strike on yourself. It is even harder than learning how to strike another person. My personal belief is that while targeting and techniques that belong to Kyusho can be integrated into the material a person learns all along, it takes an advanced student to really know how to apply them. You need to know how to punch correctly and lightly with a relaxed whipping motion. This is not a beginner skill. Then once achieved, if you are going to practice this with an uke, you need to learn to tone it WAY down and still be striking correctly.

I think that when critiquing a post, it is very important to assess WHO or WHAT KIND of student the post was written for. The forum is open to all levels of students, from the student who can't find his St 5, up and through your level.

Everyone needs to feel comfortable to post and to ask questions and to believe that his/her inquiries will be addressed respectfully.

To the student who could not find his St 5, the dent in the lower edge of the jaw is almost as wide as your thumb. Try again. Feel the edge of the lower jaw with your thumb. Go back about half way from the front of the jaw to the end where the soft tissue is in front of the ear. I just checked my teeth. The point is under my molars on the lower jaw. Try again. Let me know how you are doing.

This forum is for YOU the student who asks honest questions and wants to learn.


Edited by underdog (03/03/08 09:10 AM)

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#330404 - 03/03/08 09:29 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: underdog]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Hey Gavin. I read your post and while I was responding, you deleted it. Yes I'd love to come and train with you guys. If they ever hold the International Kyusho Convention in England, I'll try to get there. This year it is in Italy. You'd like it. It is an Eclectic group of healers and warriors.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#330405 - 03/03/08 10:07 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: underdog]
kyushoperson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 12
Loc: North England
Hi


Gavin was the former mod I was refering to?

The points regarding the diuranal cycle etc were obviously for him.

You can look back to his posts see if im right, then ask him if he believes in all that stuff now if you like?

No you're wrong again, ST5 is not a mental foramen?

It does not come out of a hole it lies in a groove which Ive named previously.

It is this place which is designated ST5.

Get a medical dictionary, the nerve lies in the facial artery groove.

It comes up from the neck across the facial artery groove and over onto the face.

The poor guy probably couldnt find it because you said it was in a hole, it is not.

Gav talked about the cycles etc which are irrelevent and you dont know body anatomy.

As someone who does kyusho I dont agree with people who dont know what they're on about making it up and putting it oput as fact.

If you dont know something as basic as what ST5 is anatomically your grades are worthless.

What difference does it make who reads it student or expert if your wrong your wrong?

tc

H


Edited by kyushoperson (03/03/08 10:26 AM)

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#330406 - 03/03/08 11:39 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: kyushoperson]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I never said St 5 was the mental foramen. There are many foramen. The mental foramen is very much forward of stomach 5. It is inferior and medial to St 4. Groove/hole. Feels the same to someone trying to find it. To quote the Qdex I have right here, "Anerior to the angle of the mandible, on the anterior border of the attached portion of the masseter muscle, in the groove-like depression appearing when the cheek is bulged." That is my last word on the subject. Hereafter, I declare you correct in all things. You can argue by yourself. Ask the administrator if you can be the new PP moderator. They need one.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#330407 - 03/03/08 11:48 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: kyushoperson]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Hel, (hope you don't mind me calling you that...just presuming coz you called me Gav. I'm assuming we're mates!)

I think you really should go back and actually read what I wrote. I think you'll find I put it up as something for discussion, not as gospel truth....much the same as my stuff now. If I remember you correctly weren't you being extremely vocal but not exactly forthcoming with much information yourself previously. In fact, if I remember correctly didn't you used to be KyushoGUY....now your a person called Helen (reading your profile)? I'll apologise if my memories a bit fuzzy, or you're not Kyushoguy....otherwise I hope there wasn't any post op problems?

Quote:

You can look back to his posts see if im right, then ask him if he believes in all that stuff now if you like?




I think the Shen and Ko cycles are uncannily scarily accurate as is the Chinese clock in terms of tracking energetic changes that manifest physically within the human physiology. Have never advocated in Martial Terms, have asked about them out of curiosity and even shared some of my thoughts and reading at the time....unlike you though I've never promoted myself as someone wot does Kyusho. Would you mind sharing with the class your qualifications as a person wot does Kyusho? I don't remember seeing too many Goju syllabuses with Kyusho as a requirement.

Anyway opinions change as we grow and progress through our lives....well, unless you're an idiot! Ciao!

Gav

PS. This should be fun!!!


Edited by Gavin (03/03/08 12:17 PM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#330408 - 03/03/08 11:58 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: Gavin]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Also found the thread that I mentioned all this stuff in. God I did say I t'was an expert didn't I!

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1


_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#330409 - 03/03/08 12:00 PM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: Gavin]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I stand corrected that St 5 is not a foramen. It feels like a wide hole but it doesn't go through so it is only a groove. I know how to find it and I know how to hit it and I know how to teach others to do the same.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#330410 - 03/04/08 10:56 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: underdog]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
_________________________
Ives

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#330411 - 03/04/08 11:57 AM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: kyushoperson]
kyushoperson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 12
Loc: North England
Hi

Gavin your post is too surreal to give creadence to.

Underdog after all the BS and argueing you looked it up and found i was right lol

Maybe you should do that before starting a thread in future?

I'll leave you guys to it.

TC

Helen (a girl)

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#330412 - 03/04/08 12:58 PM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: kyushoperson]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
well, there is this in the opening post which was right on the money:
"A KO is possible if the point is either hit hard enough, or properly set up."

yep, I agree with that, except I'd add that doing BOTH of those things are the ideal. boxers do it all the time - it's called: targeting the chin area. done. thats all you need to know. After you know that, the rest of the time can be spent training and not studying ancient spiritual maps which were altered post-WW2 by overlaying them on western anatomy maps. I could take a astronomical star chart and do the same thing - wouldn't change the fact that boxers can KO each other with gloves on by training to create openings, hit hard and target general areas like the chin.

the rest is new-age fluff, IMO.

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#330413 - 03/04/08 02:46 PM Re: Stomach 5 [Re: kyushoperson]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'll eat the humble pie on that one.

With 30+ years of experience which is more than twice my experience, consider asking to be moderator for PP. I think it runs more smoothly with a moderator. The problem is that there aren't many people posting here that are serious about PP study. There are beginners and a lot of people who want to trash it. This seems odd to me. I wouldn't go on another specialty forum to trash what they do, what is so amusing about trashing pressure point study? Anyway, you are probably thicker skinned than me. It got to me after awhile as the forum continued to go downhill.

For the record, it wasn't your correction that provoked me. While I should have not logged on that day for other reasons, and responsibility for my short temper rests with me, it was the generalizations and statements about what I believe and false summary statements about what I had said that got to me. A simple correction would have made me look up the simple fact in my book and apologize. That is what I did a couple hours later after nap time.
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