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#329230 - 03/16/07 09:28 PM MA-ists in da Nile?
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
1st off, I'd like to establish that I'm not a tough-guy. That said, I think it's also fair to say that I'm relatively well-prepared, mentally & technically. It's no secret that I spent a lot of years within a tournament-oriented dojo but left 6 yrs ago. But this question (may be considered controvercial) just popped into my head.

The question is this:
Do sport/performance oriented MA-ists and/or their instructors secretly acknowledge that they would fail in a real-life SD incedent or are they in a state of denial?

If you are a sport/performance oriented MA-ist who somehow missed the SD flight, what keeps you where you are?

Thanks.
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#329231 - 03/16/07 09:59 PM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: hedkikr]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
I don't think they neccesarily have to. Being good in sport in performance does not mean one is not good in self defense. Furthermore, they compliment each other (someone who is in good enough shape to do XMA is probably going to be a much tougher fighter. Someone who knows martial arts well enough to fight can probably pull off some spectacular feats.)

-Umbra

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#329232 - 03/16/07 10:54 PM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: hedkikr]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Some people in sport MA are genuinely tough. I guarantee that if you go up against any competition Judoka in an NHB match, you'll have your hands full. If you're fighting them on concrete, you've probably got the disadvantage. Just because they've studied MA in a sporting fashion doesn't make them bad in self defense. Besides which, more than a few people don't really care about self defense and train MA for other reasons. Those sport MAists who do care about it will make sure they learn it alongside their sport. Just because you train sport doesn't mean that's the only thing you train. Most sports Dojos I've been to don't let their students compete until they have a reasonable foundation in the basic MA, which does have applications in self defense. Competitive sport also bolsters practical experience against resisting opponents, which improves physical self defensive ability. This is often an area lacking in people who train solely for self defense...

That said, those who train sports often do not train other applications and are in denial, otherwise they would incorporate other training methods into their routines. Furthermore, many SD focused Dojos are ALSO in denial because they refuse to see that they lack the practical experience against opponents who are fighting back which you can only get in competitive sparring.

P.S. Since when was XMA a sport? I'll say Olympic Judo, Boxing, TKD and Wrestling are sports but XMA can not be classed as a sport at all. XMA is a dance.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (03/16/07 11:00 PM)
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#329233 - 03/16/07 11:18 PM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: hedkikr]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
I am sure that most serious performance orientated people are aware that they dont really know how to fight, but I think a lot who started off in the performance side are probably not aware that they are incapable of defending in real life situations.

In terms of sports martial arts, Im not sure they are at such a disadvantage in the street. I personally belive that the benefit of continually sparring and getting used to fighting is larger than the disadvantage of not training sport illegal strikes that are usually seen in self defence orientated martial arts. Sure some sports arts are too focused on one aspect of fighting, I think these people might be victims to thinking theyre invincible on the street too.
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#329234 - 03/16/07 11:58 PM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: hedkikr]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
This may sound crazy too, but I don't see much of a difference between sport and SD. In sport, you are trying not to get hit/thrown, while trying to hit/throw your opponent. I think these goals are automatically applied to SD. Also, I don't know any schools that solely teach sport, or only sport techniques that can't be applied in a SD situation.

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#329235 - 03/17/07 09:30 AM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: hedkikr]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Do sport/performance oriented MA-ists and/or their instructors secretly acknowledge that they would fail in a real-life SD incedent or are they in a state of denial?




Pretty bold statement to say that all sport arts would "fail" in self defense. I don't agree with that. If you are talking about arts that never train with resistance, and/or with severely limited rules, then I could agree.

I do feel that a lot of styles mis-represent what they do as far as self defense. The common terminology can be deceptive - sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. This has caused confusion not only with the general public, but between different groups of practitioners. I had a similar thread going here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15926430

As far as denial.....yes, some are.
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#329236 - 03/17/07 10:13 AM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: Mr_Heretik]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
Quote:

This may sound crazy too, but I don't see much of a difference between sport and SD. In sport, you are trying not to get hit/thrown, while trying to hit/throw your opponent. I think these goals are automatically applied to SD.




#1 In kumite or tournament fighting as I think it's called,Your goal is to tag him & therfore scoring a point

I Don't see any SD here whatsoever.

#2 In tournaments there's 3 to 5 officials.

With one ref & two or four officials on the side of the ring,IMO this is a controoled invironment with two opponents wearing head,hand,& foot gear.

#3 If you're a tournament fighter, there are rules such as Where,& how hard you are to hit your opponent,& where you're to hit your opponent with either very little contact,or a tag.

In most SD situations you might as well forget about scoring,or have 3 to 5 officails help controll the fight,nor will you be wearing any kind of gear,& there's no light contact on one opponent.

Respectfully yours

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (03/17/07 10:53 AM)
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#329237 - 03/17/07 10:28 AM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: Umbra_777]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
Quote:

I don't think they neccesarily have to. Being good in sport in performance does not mean one is not good in self defense. Furthermore, they compliment each other (someone who is in good enough shape to do XMA is probably going to be a much tougher fighter. Someone who knows martial arts well enough to fight can probably pull off some spectacular feats.)




Uuh,What did you just say? Someone in that pansy XMA can be a tougher fighter!?!?

Would you please explain how better an XMA's would be able to defend him/herself?
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#329238 - 03/17/07 11:01 AM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: Isshinryukid4life]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Isshin -

I think the point being made is that the athletic skills required for these sports are transferable to the SD arena. I would agree with that. Athletic skill/conditioning is certainly a factor in it's own right.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#329239 - 03/17/07 11:55 AM Re: MA-ists in da Nile? [Re: hedkikr]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:



The question is this:
Do sport/performance oriented MA-ists and/or their instructors secretly acknowledge that they would fail in a real-life SD incedent or are they in a state of denial?

Thanks.




If they secretly acknowledge it, then how on earth would we know lol!!! Just kidding!



The thing is, until you use your skills to defend yourself, it is a moot point. Who can say? Individuals have the major responsibility in their own learning, understanding & application of anything they are taught.

In my old TKD class, there was a guy who attended the annual Iain Abernethy seminar in the area. His use of TKD in SD was far and away the best in the class. But he still had the same teacher as the rest of us... It was down to this own learning abilities that he was able to use his TKD to suit his own needs.

The same instructor of the TKD class also told me, when asked, that TKD, as he taught it, had limits as a means of SD. He said he always told people this, and despite that, people still came to class as they enjoyed it.

The modern Jiu Jitsu crowd in my area were the opposite. The instructor of the class couldn't go a whole sentence without using the term "street effective" or some such tosh. There was no resistance in the class, no pressure testing.

I asked him after class once if he ever hsd to use Jiu Jitsu in real life. He said he hadn't!! Yet this same man, week in, week out, was telling people what worked on the "street". Unbeliveable.

The two points I would make based on the above are:

i) People who do martial arts that train towards sporting accomplishment do so for a variety of reasons, including, but not always, SD. As long as they know what they are training in, power to them.

ii) ANY martial art can misrepresent itself as an effective means of SD. I have seen more of this in martial arts than have no resistance training/sporting aspect than those that do.
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