FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 47 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
THEFOREVERMAN 3
royal 2
Dobbersky 2
MattJ 2
Marcus Charles 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 6 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#328976 - 10/28/07 02:17 PM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

...And now you say that I want to deny police the right to self defense.

You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. I guess it goes with being a police officer... your first reaction is to accuse someone. None of you have the slightest clue who I am or the first thing about me, yet instead of addressing the topic you immediately launch into a tidal wave of personal accusations without ever once addressing the topic. The thread now bears no resemblance to its origin and this response, like nearly all others before it, will result in another tsunami of accusations.

What a disgrace. And we wonder why Americans don't trust police?




You know, you just proved my point, that you hold yourself above what you demand of others. Talk of accusing without having a clue!!!!!
For your information, I am not a police officer. I don't have a dog in this fight and was merely following an interesting discussion. I even thought that some of your ideas had merit. That's still true, but I now believe you have a personal problem with law enforcement, and your logic is flawed.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

Top
#328977 - 10/28/07 02:56 PM Re: choice [Re: MAGon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
MAGon, what do you expect of someone who wants his "public servants" to spend all their time studying laws, and not training what we're supposed to do.

Top
#328978 - 10/31/07 08:52 PM Re: choice [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Exactly what I'm talking about. You are hung up on on ONE PERSON effecting everything by themself.



Did you not suggest to one person that they go change the law?
Quote:

This is how motorcycle helmet laws were changed in the USA, for example.



Motorcycle laws were changed when insurance companies and helmet manufacturers bought off legislators with lobbyists and campaign contributions.

Top
#328979 - 10/31/07 08:54 PM Re: choice [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

You do expect too much for me to know and interpret all that when I'm combat arms.



Could you manage the Bill of Rights? That's only ten sentences.

Top
#328980 - 10/31/07 08:56 PM Re: choice [Re: MAGon]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

For your information, I am not a police officer. I don't have a dog in this fight and was merely following an interesting discussion. I even thought that some of your ideas had merit. That's still true, but I now believe you have a personal problem with law enforcement, and your logic is flawed.



IOW, you're not denying that your first reaction was an accusation... you're merely debating what occupation you held when you made it.

Top
#328981 - 10/31/07 08:59 PM Re: choice [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

MAGon, what do you expect of someone who wants his "public servants"



Are police officers public servants?
Quote:

to spend all their time studying laws,



How can you enforce a law that you are unaware of?
Quote:

and not training what we're supposed to do.



If you do not serve the public and you're not supposed to defend and enforce the law, what exactly is it that you're "supposed to do?"

Top
#328982 - 11/01/07 07:59 AM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Did you not suggest to one person that they go change the law?




Yes sopwith, I did. I also explained the context in which I made that comment. Your insistance on using semantics and being pedantic is quite tiresome. YOU as an individual must affect OTHER INDIVIDUALS in large enough numbers to create political change. I have never said anything else. It is not "paying off" anyone - it is the political (democratic) process. I therefore (pedantically) assume you wish to be king and rule unilaterally, since the will of the people means nothing to you.

Quote:

Motorcycle laws were changed when insurance companies and helmet manufacturers bought off legislators with lobbyists and campaign contributions.




So when political change occurs that you do not agree with, then the people must be criminals? Very paranoid of you. And I will ask again, since you reject all other solutions and opinions. What would YOU do to change the system, since you find so much fault with it? Do YOU have any suggestions, or are you simply going to whine and cry about it?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#328983 - 11/01/07 08:04 AM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

Quote:

For your information, I am not a police officer. I don't have a dog in this fight and was merely following an interesting discussion. I even thought that some of your ideas had merit. That's still true, but I now believe you have a personal problem with law enforcement, and your logic is flawed.



IOW, you're not denying that your first reaction was an accusation... you're merely debating what occupation you held when you made it.




This thread has degenerated from a discussion of the issue to a pi$$ing contest, sopwith against the world. I'm outta here. Pity, it started out interestingly.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

Top
#328984 - 11/01/07 10:51 AM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

Is that too much to ask of a public servant? Should the public not expect you to know the legal code that you claim to enforce?





You complain about people making accusations and personal attacks with out knowing the facts or you, well i hate to tell you this but Bushi isn't a LEO, he's in the Army. Get your facts straight.

Quote:

Hey, I know... how 'bout a few false assumptions and cheap verbal shots instead of addressing the topic?





Your not addressing the "topic" either, your arguing semantics and misinterpretations of the government and the legal system. You want to talk about the "topic"? OK. The individual was signaled by police to stop his vehicle and he "made a choice" to refuse. His refusal was a felony offense and held the possibility of placing his life, the lives of his passengers, the lives of innocent pedestrians and the lives of LEOs at risk. It's known through training and EXPERIENCE that people who run from the police are doing so because they are guilty of other crimes, crimes that are unknown to the officers at that time. Because the officers don't know what these crimes may be they must approach the incident with the assumption that the individual is dangerous (worst case scenario). We don't know what actions prompted the police to use a taser but the events building up to the moment contact was made with the individual are contributing factors.

Quote:

You will never "have to" taze anyone. You have to breath. You have to have water. You have to have a heartbeat. You do not "have to" taze anyone.





This is where you are wrong. You see your position is that police have a "choice" and itís a matter of accepting the consequences. Well you don't HAVE to breathe or have water. You can choose to not drink or restrict your breathing if you accept the consequences, death. Life is all about choices, good ones and bad ones. Your ideals of anarchy don't float. Feel free to name a single society that exists and is successful in its existence with your ideals.

Quote:

You have the ability to simply walk away; it is your choice. Obviously, this could cost you your job or your next promotion but it remains your duty nonetheless.




Basically what you are saying is if the police attempt to arrest a man that is wanted for several murders and that man passively resists the cops should simply walk away and allow a murderer to walk away? How is that serving the public? LEOs "service" to the public isn't to do what the individuals want when they want it. It's to put there life on the line to protect innocent people from others who have made the "choice" to commit crimes against others.

Quote:

Greater still is your duty to do what is right regardless of what any law or bureaucrat says. If the state orders you to assault someone who has not harmed the life or property of another, then integrity, decency and human morality demand that you disobey the order.




Criminals are often going to try and shift the focus of their crime off them and onto another. If a person has done nothing wrong they have no reason to not cooperate with police. There are some bad apples out there and its unfortunate but police don't randomly stop people and the state doesn't give police the right to "assault" people. Whether you choose to believe it or not there are checks and balances in place to try and ensure that officers are performing their duties in the correct manor. If you have probable cause to detain an individual and that person resists, even passively, the officer has a responsibility to use force to detain that person. That responsibility is initially to the department but ultimately that responsibility is to the public they are sworn to protect.

Quote:

No, you do not. You can simply walk away. Their resistance is not an aggressive action against you. Resisting arrest is, by definition, a defensive action.





There is this thing called justifications for deadly force. in those justifications it states an officer may use deadly force in self defense, defense of others and serious offenses against persons. Not even referring to deadly force, if an individual is resisting whether passively or actively they are taking an action against an officer impeding their ability to do their job of protecting the public which is against the law in itself. Therefore the officer has the right to use the minimum amount of force needed to restrain the individual. They don't have to be physically attacking the officer for them to be able to use force.

Quote:

No human being could ever have a "right" to initiate force or violence against another. Rights are granted by God. The ability to use force without fear of retribution is granted by the state.




This is the problem, police aren't initiating force. They are reacting to the individual they are attempting to detain. I could understand your point if a cop just randomly approached someone on the street for no reason and tried to put them in cuffs, then yes that person has the right to resist. That isn't what this discussion is about. You would like us to believe that anyone regardless of what they have done, what law they have broken, has the right to refuse detention provided they aren't aggressively resisting the police.

Quote:

Never confuse to the two.




I think you may be the one confused as it seems you don't understand that society has rules and those rules must be upheld or society will collapse. Your misinterpretations of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution have you rambling about things you don't seem to have much if any relevant knowledge of.

You can side bar the discussion all you want but it will do nothing for your credibility or you impact on the discussion. If you "don't care" what others feel about your credibility then there is no reason for you to be participating in this discussion other than trolling. Unlike you i have no desire to hide behind the anonymity of the internet. I'll be more than happy to tell you exactly who i am, my age, background or any other information you feel relevant to the discussion. I will tell you up front that i am a member of military police, i do know a great deal about the laws and regulations i am held to uphold though i will easily admit that i have not committed everything to memory. That is NOT our job contrary to your belief. Additionally if i'm confronted with an individual whom i feel can over power me in an attempt to apprehend them alone you can rest assured that i will OC them in a heartbeat if they are resistant rather than take an ASP to them or worse.

You have some distorted views of law enforcement and government in general and i'm sure nothing anyone says here will sway those views. Feel free to continue rambling though, it's entertaining.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

Top
#328985 - 11/01/07 12:49 PM Re: choice [Re: laf7773]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
OK, sopwith, in regards to right to use force. I'm rolling down the streets of Baghdad and a terrorist starts firing at me. You're saying I don't have the right to fire back, in order to preserve my life, the lives of my battle buddies, or the lives of the innocent Iraqi civilians on the street?

Second, I am a Soldier, not a lawyer. A cop is a cop, not a lawyer. LE agencies and the military have legal divisions for that reason. We train in regards to things such as use of force and ROE, but playing lawyer is not our primary mission. Protecting and defending people is our mission.

And be careful about how you address the issue with lane, I believe he is military police, which means he can be LE or combat arms at any time.

Top
Page 6 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga