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#328966 - 10/18/07 09:05 AM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

Quote:

I wonder how many people with Sopwith's philosophy, when they find themselves being beaten up, scream at the nearest person or LEO, "Please, you have to help me", or do they scream, "Please, make a choice to help me".



Neither. I would either draw my Walther P99 9mm Parabellum, use my Cold Steel Gunsite II lockblade and my Kali/Silat training, or rely on the seven belts I hold in martial arts.




Although I found some of it extreme, you scored some points in my mind with the issues you'd so far raised in this debate. We are, after all, a free society and giving the police too much power is one sure way to limit that freedom. But the above quote did you in as far as I'm concerned. It appears you reserve the right to respond with the degree of force you deem necessary if you are assaulted (To include deadly force, apparently, as you mention a P9S as well as a knife), but would deny police officers the same right under the same circumstances. Where's equality under the law in that argument???? There isn't. What's left is a whole lot of hubris!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#328967 - 10/27/07 05:33 PM Re: choice [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Sounds pretty lazy to me. Have you heard of petitions, or other citizen based political machinery? If you get enough like-minded folk to agree with you, you CAN change the law.



You have not challenged the facts I presented. You can pass out petitions til your blue in the face, but they don't matter one whit until a congressman introduces the legislation and votes on it.

I understand that as a public servant, you must subscribe to the fantasy that the government you serve is responsive to the needs of the individual. But it is a lie. It is a lie you have to believe, but a lie nonetheless.

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#328968 - 10/27/07 05:36 PM Re: choice [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

sopwith, you want me to spend the time to look up the entirety of the legal code as it applies to ME



Is that too much to ask of a public servant? Should the public not expect you to know the legal code that you claim to enforce?
Quote:

If you don't like the way things are, grassroots efforts are the solution to the problem, not whining on a web forum.



Hey, I know... how 'bout a few false assumptions and cheap verbal shots instead of addressing the topic?

Gee... didn't see that one coming.

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#328969 - 10/27/07 05:46 PM Re: choice [Re: hunterkell]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

What have you done to make society a better place?
and I'm not speaking of using your verbal abilities to impart your opinions/ideas to the unwashed masses.

What actual services have you provided to society that have impacted in a meaningful way (that have served others, not yourself)?

What sacrifices have you made? to help others.

I have listed mine, would you please list yours?



Let's make this real easy and say that I've never had a job, never helped anyone, never joined the Elks club and am living under a bridge. Feel free to make any insult you like at this point.

Now let's get back to the topic.
Quote:

have you ever been arrested and what for?



I have been arrested many times... probably several hundred times... mostly on city streets and airports.

Remember, the definition of an arrest is "to bring to a stop." That's why, when someone's heart stops, it is called a cardiac "arrest." Every time that a citizen is stopped, an arrest occurs... regardless of the lame double-talk spewed by attorneys and judges. If it is done without a lawful warrant, it is a felony and the person committing the felony should face charges.

The English language is clear. If you stop someone, you have made an arrest.

However, what I think you are asking is if I've ever been in a prison or been convicted by the government of a regulatory violation against the state. The answer is no.

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#328970 - 10/27/07 05:55 PM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

You have not challenged the facts I presented. You can pass out petitions til your blue in the face, but they don't matter one whit until a congressman introduces the legislation and votes on it.




Ugh. Are your arguments so conceptually weak that you must constantly resort to sematics, sopwith? Yes - TECHNICALLY speaking, the lawmaker must introduce the legislation on behalf of the people. My point, which you *WILLFULLY IGNORE*, is that if you get enough people to go along with you at the grass-roots level, you can create enough political momentum to get a law passed (or repealed) in your favor.

You are simply too lazy or apathetic to do so.

"The people get the government they deserve."
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#328971 - 10/27/07 06:00 PM Re: choice [Re: MAGon]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

It appears you reserve the right to respond with the degree of force you deem necessary if you are assaulted (To include deadly force, apparently, as you mention a P9S as well as a knife), but would deny police officers the same right under the same circumstances.



No, I would not deny a police officer the same right to defend himself. However, the scenario that started this thread hardly qualifies as "self defense." Now, let's take stock for a moment of the type of responses offered here...

One officer suggested that I'd never done anything to help humanity.

Another implied that I had a prison record.

Another says I'm too lazy to take part in any effort to change a law (not sure how he knows this).

And now you say that I want to deny police the right to self defense.

You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. I guess it goes with being a police officer... your first reaction is to accuse someone. None of you have the slightest clue who I am or the first thing about me, yet instead of addressing the topic you immediately launch into a tidal wave of personal accusations without ever once addressing the topic. The thread now bears no resemblance to its origin and this response, like nearly all others before it, will result in another tsunami of accusations.

What a disgrace. And we wonder why Americans don't trust police?

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#328972 - 10/27/07 06:10 PM Re: choice [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

My point, which you *WILLFULLY IGNORE*, is that if you get enough people to go along with you at the grass-roots level, you can create enough political momentum to get a law passed (or repealed) in your favor.



Have you ever done this? If so, which law did you get passed or repealed?

I did, in fact, specifically address your suggestion that I "change the law." I explained in detail the precise process which had to occur in order for the change to take effect, and I explained in detail the extent of an individual's capacity to affect government law.

You responded with generalities, accusations and insults, based on your false presumptions that the undefined strategies you suggest are effective and that I have not yet tried them.

The simple fact is that no matter how overwhelming the evidence to the contrary, you MUST believe the myth that any single individual can change any law through their own efforts. Failure to believe that myth demonstrates that you are forcing law upon an unwilling people in return for money. Rather than consider that possibility, you will believe what you must believe in order to look in the mirror every morning and attack anyone who suggests otherwise.
Quote:

You are simply too lazy or apathetic to do so.



And now - despite the fact that you have no remote idea of my political history - you have determined that I am "lazy" and "apathetic."

Honestly... are you capable of carrying on a discussion without insults and accusations?

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#328973 - 10/27/07 06:15 PM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
No sop, you should be ashamed of yourself. You have done little but whine about the state of things in the government (and I am not arguing that there aren't problems). But when others attempt to give you THEIR side or offer solutions, you write them off as liars or criminals.

You are making just as many assumptions, my friend.

Not all police are the enemy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#328974 - 10/27/07 06:26 PM Re: choice [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:


Have you ever done this? If so, which law did you get passed or repealed?




Hell no. I am too lazy and apathetic.

Quote:

I did, in fact, specifically address your suggestion that I "change the law." I explained in detail the precise process which had to occur in order for the change to take effect, and I explained in detail the extent of an individual's capacity to affect government law.




No you didn't. You tiredly resorted to sematics, like below:

Quote:

The simple fact is that no matter how overwhelming the evidence to the contrary, you MUST believe the myth that any single individual can change any law through their own efforts. Failure to believe that myth demonstrates that you are forcing law upon an unwilling people in return for money. Rather than consider that possibility, you will believe what you must believe in order to look in the mirror every morning and attack anyone who suggests otherwise.




Exactly what I'm talking about. You are hung up on on ONE PERSON effecting everything by themself. This is not how democracy works. You CAN individually change the minds of other people, creating a "tsunami" of political will to create change in the direction that you wish. This is how motorcycle helmet laws were changed in the USA, for example. I am not writing of foggy theories - it can happen if YOU create a start point and see it through.

Your semantic "single individual can change any law through their own efforts" is called a monarchy, and this country was founded in large part to get away from that type of thinking.

See? I can play semantics, too.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#328975 - 10/28/07 12:23 AM Re: choice [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
UCMJ

Army regulations

ROE

sopwith, you asked for it, you got it. That's just the tip of the iceberg. In particular, pay attention to Article 92 of the UCMJ, as any post regulation or unit directive falls under that. There is more than you could imagine, and I'm military, not LE. I train to fight wars, not try cases. You do expect too much for me to know and interpret all that when I'm combat arms.

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