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#328946 - 08/10/07 07:45 PM Re: Local News: In Custody Death [Re: hunterkell]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

For instance, in the state of Florida, if I become aware of someone that has a warrant (whether via a traffic stop, a standard notification from Warrants Division, or just a routine vehicle license plate check) and let's ay the warrant is for a criminal charge (domestic violence battery, assault, agg/battery, etc) I HAVE to effect an arrest. I have no CHOICE in the matter.



That is a false statement.

You have the ability to simply walk away; it is your choice. Obviously, this could cost you your job or your next promotion but it remains your duty nonetheless.

Greater still is your duty to do what is right regardless of what any law or bureaucrat says. If the state orders you to assault someone who has not harmed the life or property of another, then integrity, decency and human morality demand that you disobey the order.

You never HAVE to arrest anyone. It is an act of the will.
Quote:

The state of Florida mandates that I make the arrest, or I can be criminally charged, lose my job, sued via civil action.



Precisely. So you do have a choice. And this is exactly where great people in history step forward. They value their integrity and principles to such an extent that they are willing to sacrifice for what is right. Some have sacrificed their lives, some their families, and the lucky ones only lose their jobs. But this is the difference between great human beings and order takers. Each one has a choice.

(Of course I am speaking of the vast majority of arrests in which the victim has not harmed the life or property of another... I would agree entirely with you in cases where an actual, literal crime occurs and deprives someone of rightful property or life).

Quote:

If that person resists arrest, I HAVE to use force



No, you do not. You can simply walk away. Their resistance is not an aggressive action against you. Resisting arrest is, by definition, a defensive action.

Quote:

I am given certain "rights" as a police officer that are given to me from the state of FLorida...and one of those "rights" is to use FORCE in certain situations.



No human being could ever have a "right" to initiate force or violence against another. Rights are granted by God. The ability to use force without fear of retribution is granted by the state.

Never confuse to the two.

Quote:

As long as I follow those guidlines (statutory requirements actually), I am not "assualting" anyone (after all that is a crime); I am simply using "force" to effect an arrest.



"Assault" is defined as "a sudden, violent attack; onslaught."

When you initiate force against someone to make an arrest, make no mistake, you are most certainly assaulting them. The government may not call it an assault, but the government does not have the ability to redefine the English language as it pleases. The fact that the state rarely holds it agents accountable for assault does not mean that an assault did not occur. It simply means that the one initiating the assault will not face retribution for their actions.

Is it possible that you've been a police officer so long that you are now allowing the state to define you, your actions and your language and your personal morality is taking second place to state orders? That is an honest question, not an insult.

I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your refrain from ad hominal arguments. It is a pleasure to talk with someone who's first reaction is not a verbal gut shot. Have a nice evening.

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#328947 - 08/12/07 02:19 AM Please welcome me to your forum [Re: sopwith21]
Bobononoll Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 1
Links deleted. This is a family friendly site, bad language, links to filth, advocation of illegal practices etc are not allowed or tolerated.

Your 'wisdom' you can keep for yourself till your eyesight gives out or you get rsi in your wrist. Whichever happens first, you wont be posting about it here. Buh-byeeee!


Edited by Cord (08/12/07 05:33 PM)

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#328948 - 08/12/07 03:59 PM ATTN MODS : PORN LINKS [Re: Bobononoll]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Thanks for the porn links jackass. Get lost.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#328949 - 08/13/07 06:15 PM Re: ATTN MODS : PORN LINKS [Re: MattJ]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Sopwith,

Truly, you have a unique perspective. One that I think you have earned by possible acts that you should not have commited.

But as far as your personal assertions (towards me), ultimately they are wrong.

Someone such as yourself, may have a choice as to what they do or not do....

Someone such as myself, does not; I am sworn to uphold the law (whether others like it or not). When I swore an oath I commited myself to that path.

I obey the law and respect it, even as the law says someone such as yourself has the right to voice your opinion (no matter if your opinion is in the minority or it is grossly misguided), it also says I must commit certain acions during the course of my duties.

Or why else would I put my life on the line to prtoect someone such as yourself (not a personal dig-regarding your personal/political beliefs)....every single day of my life?

Someone who insults my sacrifices, my sense of honor, my sense of duty. Someone that insinuates that I am a criminal and/or suggests that I commit criminal acts.

Someone whom I suggest has not made (or tried to make society) a better place.

I have spent my life serving society. I have seen active duty service, reserve duty service, and nat'l guard duty service. I have been in combat units, medic units, and also (active duty) served as a firefighter. I have served during war (and feels that it does not make me special, simply makes me an American).

Individuals such as you have the right to voice their opinion (and that opinion should be given its due), however, in the end, such views are known for what they are.

My police service will end in 2.5 years and I will retire.

I will then seek another career in which I can serve society; not in law enforcement, military, or firefighter type pursuits (my body is showing wear and tear from the above listed type of occupations).

But, I will find a career in which I can make society (or try to anyway) a better place- because for me, that is not a choice, it's simply who and what I am.

K
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#328950 - 08/14/07 03:08 PM Re: ATTN MODS : PORN LINKS [Re: hunterkell]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Well said.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#328951 - 08/14/07 07:08 PM Re: ATTN MODS : PORN LINKS [Re: hunterkell]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Sopwith,

Truly, you have a unique perspective. One that I think you have earned by possible acts that you should not have commited.

But as far as your personal assertions (towards me), ultimately they are wrong.

Someone such as yourself, may have a choice as to what they do or not do....

Someone such as myself, does not; I am sworn to uphold the law (whether others like it or not). When I swore an oath I commited myself to that path.

I obey the law and respect it, even as the law says someone such as yourself has the right to voice your opinion (no matter if your opinion is in the minority or it is grossly misguided), it also says I must commit certain acions during the course of my duties.

Or why else would I put my life on the line to prtoect someone such as yourself (not a personal dig-regarding your personal/political beliefs)....every single day of my life?

Someone who insults my sacrifices, my sense of honor, my sense of duty. Someone that insinuates that I am a criminal and/or suggests that I commit criminal acts.

Someone whom I suggest has not made (or tried to make society) a better place.

I have spent my life serving society. I have seen active duty service, reserve duty service, and nat'l guard duty service. I have been in combat units, medic units, and also (active duty) served as a firefighter. I have served during war (and feels that it does not make me special, simply makes me an American).

Individuals such as you have the right to voice their opinion (and that opinion should be given its due), however, in the end, such views are known for what they are.

My police service will end in 2.5 years and I will retire.

I will then seek another career in which I can serve society; not in law enforcement, military, or firefighter type pursuits (my body is showing wear and tear from the above listed type of occupations).

But, I will find a career in which I can make society (or try to anyway) a better place- because for me, that is not a choice, it's simply who and what I am.

K




Sopwith is right that we all have choices. My choice is to applaud your sentiment, your motives, and your actions.

I have never really understood the whole 'big brother' paranoia. Laws are created by representatives of the people, for the protection and betterment of the society that the people have created. Those who enforce those laws do so for the people, as agents of the society they represent. Police protect. Its the very core ethos of the job. Sometimes the safety of the many law abiding citizens comes at the expense of the safety of the violent criminal. Thats an ugly, but necessary, fact of life. Any thoughts to the contrary are student-bedsit idealism that demonstrate a lack of understanding of the real world.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#328952 - 08/17/07 01:00 AM Re: ATTN MODS : PORN LINKS [Re: Cord]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Notwithstanding Sop's assertions.

Having been in public service for over 17.5 years:

I have seen police officers make mistakes. I have seen police officers break the very laws that are guaranteed to the citizens.

In short police officers are human (with all the frailties that go with that).

A person that commits a crime is guaranteed certain civil rights and they should be allowed those rights (even as I would want those same rights afforded to me, or, for a loved one).

Further, when an officer makes an arrest, that person that is arrested, should be treated with as much dignity, respect, and politeness as can be afforded to them (btw,I am NOT a staff officer-just a line officer). I feel it is not my job to demean others, even those that commit abhorent crimes, afterall, why create more hate in the world?

In a word professionalism.

I have had to strike a suspect that was battering me upside the head (I had a handheld radio in one hand and my mag in the other, so I used the maglight) and one second later have to give him CPR while calling for EMS to respond in emergency mode. I was not SORRY I struck him, but, it was nothing personal, it was business and since he was no longer in a position to be able to hurt me; and I not only wanted him to be able to stand trial for those 60 pieces of rock cocaine that he had thrown away while I was chasing him, but, I genuinely wanted him to be OKAY.

I can understand why police officers get a bad rap: TV, newspapers, movies, tv shows (the shield, lol), etc....most certainly some of it is true.

But, two things:

1. the thousands of police officers that are good honest citizens that contribute to society, you never hear about; they are at home with their families.

2. ultimately, we as police officers, have to "police" our own and to search out, find, and remove those that are unfit (for WHATEVER reason) to be counted in our ranks.

That's why in a way I can understand where Sop is coming from, I just think his rhetoric is somewhat extreme and biased possibly even gained from along the lines of what Cord suggested.

K

p.s. jpoor-ur sig line is great-made me laugh


Edited by hunterkell (08/17/07 01:06 AM)

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#328953 - 08/18/07 09:40 PM Re: ATTN MODS : PORN LINKS [Re: hunterkell]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
sop, I'm not going to repeat everything that's been said in rebuttal to you already, just that I agree with it.

I have this one challenge for you, find a military installation and try to steal some weapons or ammo. Surrendering once you begin is not an option.

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#328954 - 08/21/07 11:24 AM choice [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I wonder how many people with Sopwith's philosophy, when they find themselves being beaten up, scream at the nearest person or LEO, "Please, you have to help me", or do they scream, "Please, make a choice to help me".
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#328955 - 08/21/07 11:41 AM Re: choice [Re: trevek]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I wonder how many people with Sopwith's philosophy, when they find themselves being beaten up, scream at the nearest person or LEO, "Please, you have to help me", or do they scream, "Please, make a choice to help me".




Good point, Trev. Laws and repercussions are a way of life everywhere. You have to learn to accept it, change the laws, or suffer the consequences. It's really quite simple.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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