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#328298 - 03/26/07 06:02 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Dereck]
Shonuff Offline

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 604
Loc: London, UK

Do you not think that you and many other WTF people, whom I have noticed have (justifiably) little interest in forms, might have their interest increased by making the modifications I suggested?

I personally would still question whether another eschelon of development of the forms might not be warranted to encapsulate changes and modernisations and improvements?
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

#328299 - 03/26/07 08:31 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Well I can speak from my experience as Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and WTF TKD. I learned all my self defense from TSD but when it comes to attacking, counterattacking, footwork and sparring I learned this from WTF TKD as it has to do with competition. And although much of the sparring is limited to mostly kicking techniques, because of my previous training and solo innovation I altered it to fit what i learned in self defense.

I see Olympic style TKD as the missing link to all other Korean styles. Heck, I see it as the missing component to any art. Much the way I see ground grappling/wrestling.

The alterations to the kicks and the footwork + stances, and the new scientific methods of training are vital to any art.

And the above to me is the only difference between "traditional" and "modern" Everything eles is pretty much the same. Although I myself have not done a study... and even though it was something I really wanted to do as part of my undergraduate experimental lab course. I am positive there is a correlation with how competition TKD versus self defense TKD affects the attitudes of children. Competitive TKD tends to have more aggressive students. But thats just part of my hypothesis.

Anyways back to forms. I am not a fan of forms, particlarly the Pinan set which basically all Japanese and Korean Forms set are a copy of. Yes this includes ITF Chun ji forms/patterns. They basically all have the same techniques in a different sequence...You might as well have students make up their own forms if this is the case. On top of this much of the self defense and fighting is completely different from the forms, that means these forms/patterns/dances are not useful. At least not in this day and age.

I will state reasons why now.

As an example, I bring up jeet kune do. An set of concepts and methods of training combined from different methods of combat. JKD takes a different approach to combat, it is really not a form of self defense but actual fighting. It focuses on attacking and counterattacking. Much of their earlier training came from the stylistic stereo types from different martial arts. You see unlike now a days, the early martial artist actually did fight the way they trained. No matter what style they were the old adage "you fight how you train" held true. Which is probably a reason why so many arts are starting to move away from forms training, not because it's useless but simply because there are better ways to train. This can be the case why many martial artist develop their own set of forms to reflect a modern approach to combat.

Anyways, JKD took into consideration the mechanical movements of these styles such as the stances, double chambers, hip chambers, side chambers ect. This is evident just by the way your particular style decides to hold their hands while practicing punches.

Back to my first point... JKD took advantage of one of these stylistic movements such as the chambers. As many of you know when your practicing punches from a horse stance or a front stance there is a left hand chamber that comes out before you punch with your right hand. JKD took advantage of that left hand chamber. In a combat situation a karate man would set up their punch with a left hand chamber JKD trained to trap that first left hand chamber in order to beat the karateman to the punch. This was taken from the wing chun and filipina arts it's known as trapping.

A different example could be the styles such as Shorin ryu, goju ryu and uechi ryu. Some of these styles practice the pinan set but also include other kata that are more of a singnature to their styles. Much of Uechi ryu practice circular open hand bltocking and dirfect striking to the throat using finger jabs and palm heels. This can be seen in their forms. And in fact their step sparring and self defense exercises/drills look and reinforce that approach to self defense. Unlike TKD, which many schools contain a set of formalized superficial non realistic set of step sparring. However, many schools have compensated for this and have altered their step sparring to fit a more modern appraoch to self defense. This leaves the question as to why practice the old forms then, if they were meant to techniques of self defense.

Some of the shorin ryu style katas reflect their styles attributes which are similar to kenpo. Although shorin ryu like most Okinawan styles have multipple sets of forms, we are still addressing what seems to be off shoots of the pinans from shotokan to TSD to TKD (WTF or ITF). Shorin ryu like Uechi ryu still have katas that reinforces their approach to self defense.

Much like many of the kenpo masters. Masters who developed their own set of katas to reflect their approach to self defense and combat using rapid multiple hand attacks and economy of motion along with over kill to deliver their techniques. They katas reflect a more in your face up close and personal style of fighting.

The forms being used by TKD today do not reflect the way it's students approach self defense and combat.

Some arts have their own katas just to make themselves unique. Similar to what WTF TKD did in order to seperate itself from the ITF Chun ji's. They changed the sequence of techniques and uprighted it's stances more. And marketing these set of forms as the "modern" apprach to combat. And for those who value the forms can actually squeeze some real applications from these techniques and apply them to sparring. However, for those of you who spar constantly no matter whether it's Olympic style or w/e. you know the majority of your skills does not come from forms training. But combat drills and modernized exercise sets. While sparring is not fighting and fighting is not self defense. Sparring is a closer tool to actual violence than is solo katas, hyungs, poomse, tuls training.

You'll have to excuse me guys but I've run out of time and my thoughts are now really, really scattered. Please feel free to comment on my ramblings.

One last thing, I prefer to learn self defense/fighting they way ju-jutsu, judo, hapkido, jiu-jitsu, jeet kune do learn. By using drills and partners. This approach may not look as pretty and artistic as say a kung fu or Okinawan kata, but they approach combat in a practical way.
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da

#328300 - 03/26/07 09:19 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
BulldogTKD Offline

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Last night I did a search about what patterns were first, the Palgwe or the Taegeuk. What I found out was very interesting. I will not type what I found but I will post the links.

Look at "The Modern History of Taekwondo."

#328301 - 03/27/07 12:20 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, I would tend to agree that there is limited practical use of patterns for SD. If I was solely training for SD, I would minimize the use of my time dedicated to Tuls. However, for me, Taekwon-Do is a SD Art form. Hence, I love the Tuls. However, to each their own!

#328302 - 03/27/07 04:03 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Dereck]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hi Dereck,

no need to apologise. I was just making the comment that we had been told to get back to discussing WTF forms and yet there wasn't that much discussion going on about them anyway, hence the ITF-based discussion ensued.

Perhaps that in itself suggests a lack of interest generally in WTF forms. Perhaps answering the question of the original post.
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

#328303 - 03/27/07 05:20 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: ITFunity]
practica Offline

Registered: 07/09/03
Posts: 19
The whole point is that patterns should be practiced with partners. They're only meant to be practiced on your own if you can't find anyone to practice with.

Take the moves out of order, try one application for a defence and see if you can move into another. Find a move and then practice it with differing types of compliancy up to the point where you don gloves and batter each other trying to use the techniques. That's the point of patterns, you're not supposed to practice them in isolation to SD or without partners. That's the 'new' way of doing them.

#328304 - 03/27/07 06:00 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: trevek]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
You might be right Trevek. I assumed that there would be somebody on the forum who was interested in WTF forms, since they are very important to a lot of ITF practitioners(myself not included). I wonder whether this is due to the weakness of forms as a training tool for WTF Taekwondo, or due to the weaknesses of WTF forms themselves?

#328305 - 03/27/07 06:34 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: TeK9]
Shonuff Offline

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 604
Loc: London, UK
The Pinan kata as they exist in Karate are very relevant useful forms. They encapsulate basic self defence from a striking and control perspective. They may be empty dances in TKD and that is why I feel forms should be updated.

Tek9 you seem to be agreeing with me, even down to how I use WTF in my MA training, except that you feel students should make up their own forms rather than have modern TKD catalogued into new forms by its seniors.

You are right, arts do/did fight as they trained. Most Karate styles are trying to return to that state of affairs or understand what they missed that allows their stylistic methods to be more practical. TKD does not fight how it trains so I propose changing the training (forms) to rectify this.
JKD is a nice idea but the problem with how they work is that they take techniques out of context. For example one can learn and master the reverse punch of shotokan karate, it is powerful and simple and you may do some damage with it by fitting it into ones generic JKD system. However when taken out of context of the rest of karate you lose its true purpose and effective combative continuations/set ups. Its not the best example but it does fit what I have seen and learned.

One key point is that forms do not remove the need for partner drills. Forms teach you what principles to practice in your partner drills.
What is happening in modern MA is that rather than study and understand a finite system such as wingchun etc people are running here there and everywhere trying to pick up bits to make their arts "complete" and I don't just mean by adding grappling. MAists find any kind of drill and start practicing it calling it part of their own art rather than studying what they have in depth to find the answers that art has. Now in TKD's case I think this is both understandable and appropriate as I personally don't see alot of depth in it outside of a particular style of punching and kicking (although within that there are many valid answers for those who wish to find them). However not even that style of punching and kicking has been recorded in forms, let alone the advancements and study in other areas. Nothing that is used in sparring, SD, fighting or anything other than display is currently contained in the patterns (at least not the wtf).

So why not change that so the forms reflect the art that has grown up under the name Taekwondo?
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

#328306 - 03/27/07 12:10 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hmm, okay I see that you did not fully understand what I am trying to convey about JKD. I'm going to have to do a little research and actually quote out of some book now...gosh darnet.

Perhaps I can explain it with judo then. Judo is an art developed by Jigaro Kano. He studied mny systems of ju-jutsu and realized that all these systems were based solely upon techniques. Neither system had a set of underlying principles. Master Kano developed a set of prinicples and only kept the techniques which only adhered to these principles. These techniques became what we know as judo. I could not quote the principles off the top of my head so please don't expect me to. Now some may say..."Well judo is a sport and not an art of self defense" like WTF TKD it is correct to a point. Many of the techniques in judo have been developed for competition sparring. However, many of the traditional techniques work on the principles of self defense/combat. Perhaps you may be thinking "judo has no strikes, it is far removed from a SD sytem", this to would be wrong, Master Kano for the sake of teaching in Universities, removed the most dangerous of techniques including the striking techniques which adhere to the Judo principles. Now looking at Judo, you can clearly see that it is a completely formalized art, unlike JKD which has chosen to ignore the traditional ritualiztic customs of a style and get down to the nitty gritty.

Like Judo, JKD does not just pull a set of techniques from one art and add them to their own. They too have a set of complex principles and apply techniques in relation to these principles. The biggest difference is that they have kept the most dangerous of techniques. Practice is not so formalized, eye gouging and throat striking are still essential combative tools. The block+punch+block+kick is no longer practice. The strike+strike+trap+strike is now the approach and even that has changed to some extent as with ranges and wrestling/ground grappling being employed.
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da

#328307 - 03/27/07 01:01 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: TeK9]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
It never ceases to amaze me how extensive, in depth and detailed discussions on the TKD forum can get.
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