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22738 Members
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Max Online: 307 @ 02/21/13 09:36 AM
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#328268 - 03/21/07 06:30 PM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: sjon]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
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sjon
If you research shows you all that you stated I'm extremely impressed at your research skills and I can understand why you would not want to change.
Can I just ask where you found the information on the forms and their SD applications in your first point. My understanding was that TKD was based on the Shotokan the Japanese taught the koreans. Its long been realised that the Japanese, particularly the Shotokanka knew absolutely nothing about application beyond a solid and powerful punch kick ability.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!
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#328269 - 03/21/07 07:42 PM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: Shonuff]
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Member
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
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Quote:
sjon
If you research shows you all that you stated I'm extremely impressed at your research skills and I can understand why you would not want to change.
Can I just ask where you found the information on the forms and their SD applications in your first point. My understanding was that TKD was based on the Shotokan the Japanese taught the koreans. Its long been realised that the Japanese, particularly the Shotokanka knew absolutely nothing about application beyond a solid and powerful punch kick ability.
this is what has been well quoted in interviews with early masters over the years, and i would also like to know where this new information was found?
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#328270 - 03/22/07 06:17 AM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: Paulol]
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Smiter of the smited
Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
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Hello guys.
In fact, hello Paul, I think we’ve met at Iain’s forum.
Right, I hope you can understand that I don’t want to go into detail here and now about this, nor do I have time to do so. All will be revealed in time. However …
My research regarding the historical side is good old-fashioned academic investigation, and has drawn on (a) existing published texts (b) discussions with masters (c) observation of tendencies within TKD and related arts (d) study of the patterns themselves. As is so often the case, it’s more a question of adequately analysing the existing material and seeking out lesser-known (but still openly available) sources, than it is of discovering secret treasure troves of information. From there you draw your conclusions within a strict investigative framework, some of which are pretty cut and dried, others more open to debate, but – hey – most academic study worth its salt involves a certain degree of hypothesis.
The Shotokan thing, right, there was a big Shotokan influence, and indeed Shotokan has a reputation for being very “face-value” kick-block-punch. However, pre-WWII Shotokan was quite different from the more modern version, and the former certainly included a fair amount of gripping and throwing. Whether that was directly connected with the patterns is another question.
Apart from that, at least three (probably four or five) other styles, all of them what we could consider “old-style” form-based MA’s, had strong, traceable inputs into the TSD/KSD taught in the early kwans. And I’m not talking about Taekyon or Soo Bahk.
About the SD applications, well, that’s the big question really, isn’t it? There are plenty of people around doing “the bunkai thing”. The question is how practical it is and how well it fits the context of the art and the patterns, i.e. was it really there or are you trying to force a square block into a round hole?
So, no, for me at least I wouldn’t want to change the patterns. But bear in mind that this is just the direction I’ve chosen to pursue within the wider context of TKD. For my needs it’s the most satisfying and effective one, but this does not in any way imply that I reject out of hand the “hard-style” and “sporting” versions – they’re just not for me.
Hope that answers your questions, at least initially. Really, I don’t want to go into details at this stage, and I can’t guarantee I’ll be around to engage in much debate in the near future.
Cheers,
Simon
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#328271 - 03/22/07 08:02 AM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: sjon]
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Member
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
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yes simon thats me  good luck with your current project! i can well imagine what it is  wtf tkd needs this as much as itf tkd does!! but i reserve my original comments
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#328272 - 03/22/07 08:23 AM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: Paulol]
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Newbie
Registered: 07/09/03
Posts: 19
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I second that, especially as TKD&KMA magazine over here has had at least one of the pioneering Masters admitting they they had no clue as to what the meanings were and that techniques were added 'because Choi liked them that way'.
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#328273 - 03/22/07 09:44 AM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: practica]
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Smiter of the smited
Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
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Right. I don’t want to start up an ITF-WTF debate (there are plenty here already ), but bear in mind that the ITF has always been overwhelmingly dominated by the influence of one man (Choi), while early TSD/KSD is undeniably a far wider phenomenon involving at least half a dozen other masters who are known to have studied “old-style” arts and who in some cases outranked Choi. Cheers, Simon
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#328274 - 03/24/07 12:36 AM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: sjon]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
Right. I don’t want to start up an ITF-WTF debate (there are plenty here already ), but bear in mind that the ITF has always been overwhelmingly dominated by the influence of one man (Choi), while early TSD/KSD is undeniably a far wider phenomenon involving at least half a dozen other masters who are known to have studied “old-style” arts and who in some cases outranked Choi.
Cheers, Simon
No debate here, as that is true. I however would say that Gen. Choi ran things as a General, even after he was out of the military, so he ruled with an iron fist. However, he was aided by many leading Martial Artists, who contributed so much & were in the his shadow, some even outranking him as well.
So it is similiar to the TSD/KSD situation, but they just didn't get as much credit as the General.
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#328275 - 03/24/07 06:18 AM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: ITFunity]
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Smiter of the smited
Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
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Quote:
Quote:
Right. I don’t want to start up an ITF-WTF debate (there are plenty here already ), but bear in mind that the ITF has always been overwhelmingly dominated by the influence of one man (Choi), while early TSD/KSD is undeniably a far wider phenomenon involving at least half a dozen other masters who are known to have studied “old-style” arts and who in some cases outranked Choi.
Cheers, Simon
No debate here, as that is true. I however would say that Gen. Choi ran things as a General, even after he was out of the military, so he ruled with an iron fist. However, he was aided by many leading Martial Artists, who contributed so much & were in the his shadow, some even outranking him as well.
So it is similiar to the TSD/KSD situation, but they just didn't get as much credit as the General.
Right, what I mean is that despite the general's later influence in the wider politics of the KTA, etc, in the beginning he was the founder of just one of several kwans, and when he founded the ODK several other kwans had been operating for a number of years. In fact, Choi was a graduate of one of these kwans. While not wishing to diminish his role in KMA, I think it's important to realise that Choi's vision of the art was just one of maybe four or five fairly different styles. It just happens that he was the one who rose above the rest politically speaking and was able to make the name "father of TKD" stick.
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#328276 - 03/24/07 11:24 AM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: sjon]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
Right, what I mean is that despite the general's later influence in the wider politics of the KTA, etc, in the beginning he was the founder of just one of several kwans, and when he founded the ODK several other kwans had been operating for a number of years. In fact, Choi was a graduate of one of these kwans. While not wishing to diminish his role in KMA, I think it's important to realise that Choi's vision of the art was just one of maybe four or five fairly different styles. It just happens that he was the one who rose above the rest politically speaking and was able to make the name "father of TKD" stick.
Yes I agree. However he was what many consider CO-Founder of the Oh Do Kwan, along with GM Nam Tae Hi. GM Nam was his military subordinate, but many think he was the better Martial Artist. GM Nam was a very early member of the Chung Do Kwan. Mr. Choi was not. He was at one time, someone who oversaw it, but that was probably because of his military position. Mr. Choi's MA background was self report of studying TaeKyon under his caligraphy teacher & training in Karate (1st & 2nd dan) when he was in Japan at school.
There is no question that his position as a Major General & Ambassador, afforded him great opportunity to do wonders for the development. I also love his patterns & wouldn't change them. I also think they are better than the others, but then I am biased!
edited to fix quote
Edited by MattJ (03/24/07 12:24 PM)
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#328277 - 03/24/07 03:12 PM
Re: Should they re-invent their forms
[Re: ITFunity]
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Member
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
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Quote:
I also love his patterns & wouldn't change them. I also think they are better than the others, but then I am biased!
problem is that the chang hon patterns are not all gen choi's creation!!
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