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#328338 - 05/02/08 05:56 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jeff_andle]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
What's that got to do with re-inventing forms?

Changing the tradition and doing different and more relevant patterns and even centering your training drills around them isn't going to reduce or harm the spiritual, philosophical, sporting or otherwise non-martial elements of the art, nor will it instantly turn your class into a bunch of bareknuckle street fighters.
If anything it would enhance those traditional aspects because the forms would have that much more depth and thus more reason for correct technique beyond "teacher said so".
Teachers would need to know more about how to adapt techniques for people and situations and many more benefits too.

As you've pointed out, emphasis is up to the individual, but that aspect of choice is removed if the solo training aspects of an art are 1-dimensional.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#328339 - 05/02/08 09:39 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jeff_andle]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
New WTF pattern?
To me it looks like a lot of ATA influance in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8HSUyVpN-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5cRWdG4spk&NR=1


Edited by BulldogTKD (05/02/08 09:43 AM)

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#328340 - 05/02/08 11:11 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jeff_andle]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Formal stances, as with any aspect of the art, should only be kept if those who keep them understand how to train and use them and how they relate to combat (note I say combat as opposed to sparring).




Thats a study in itself. I am not sure about the term kept.
I dont think they should be discarded. I think they should still be practiced even if a person doesnt know how to use them. Because when that person finds some one who can use them the learning curve will be that much easier.
Quote:


about "traditionalist vs. modernist" interpretation (aka "martial" vs. "art".)




Sounds like a topic that would create head aches.

Jude

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#328341 - 05/02/08 11:17 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: BulldogTKD]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

New WTF pattern?
To me it looks like a lot of ATA influance in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8HSUyVpN-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5cRWdG4spk&NR=1




For competition use I suppose they are considered ok. Are the practioners taugth practical two man drills taken from the kata/ forms?

Jude

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#328342 - 05/02/08 12:31 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jude33]
msb1964 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/30/08
Posts: 18
One thing in the ITF when doing patterns is that eyes,hands, feet, and breath come together as one in each movement. Here, mostly in the slow movements, the stance is completed before the technique is finished. Just an observation.

Mike

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#328343 - 05/02/08 11:01 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jude33]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
It seems that TKD is becoming a just kicking art. I teach the palgwe forms because there are self defense applications in them. I cover this in class along with all the other benefits of doing forms has to offer.

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#328344 - 05/04/08 03:07 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: msb1964]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
msb, what is the purpose of this alignment? Does it have combative value?

It sounds like one of those traditions that makes the form harder for the sake of greater discipline as opposed to being something actually used. Note that's not a criticsm, discipline is very important and long before Martial "Art" was about fighting it was about self improvement, but this concept does sound more art than martial.
_________________________
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#328345 - 05/05/08 06:08 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

msb, what is the purpose of this alignment? Does it have combative value?

It sounds like one of those traditions that makes the form harder for the sake of greater discipline as opposed to being something actually used. Note that's not a criticsm, discipline is very important and long before Martial "Art" was about fighting it was about self improvement, but this concept does sound more art than martial.




Control of breathing is critical in sparring and SD. Hand foot timing in forms teaches one to do multiple things at once, such as block, take space and set up counter, or kick, blocking counter as landing. I don't know the ITF timing and flow, but we reatain that influence.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#328346 - 05/05/08 11:25 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
msb1964 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/30/08
Posts: 18
Quote:

msb, what is the purpose of this alignment? Does it have combative value?

It sounds like one of those traditions that makes the form harder for the sake of greater discipline as opposed to being something actually used. Note that's not a criticsm, discipline is very important and long before Martial "Art" was about fighting it was about self improvement, but this concept does sound more art than martial.




This is part of what the ITF call, "The Training Secrets of Taekwon-Do". These are:

1. To study the theory of power thoroughly.
2. to understand the purpose and method of each movement clearly.
3. To bring the action of eyes, hands, feet, and breath into on single coordinated action.
4. To choose the appropriate attacking tool for each vital point.
5. To become familiar with the correct angle and distance for attack and defence.
6. Keep both the arms and legs bent slightly while movement is in motion.
7. All movements begin with a backwards motion with very few exceptions.
8. To create sine wave during the movement by utilizing the knee spring.

All these are meant to help you on your road to learning TKD and making it easier in understanding what you are learning.

Mike

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#328347 - 05/05/08 05:16 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: msb1964]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Some TKD Patterns are just that, patterns. I know the Songahm patterns were developed to form a Star Pattern when all the patterns were compleat. The "Songahm Star" is a pattern of many movements put to gether as kicking and punching sequances and nothing more. What about the self defense aplications? Wasn't that the origional intent of creating the forms in the first place or was that just a Japanese thing?

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