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#328328 - 04/03/08 10:23 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: MAMASAN]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Mamasan,

I get plenty from my forms: Shotokan forms, Crane kungfu forms, just not Taekwondo forms. I've alot of experience analyzing forms from a variety of systems and of them all I find TKD poomse a waste of time.

My main issue is that I see TKD has grown well beyond it's early Karate based bounds into it's own unique art and this is not represented in the forms trained. I can only speak really for myself and I've only really experienced WTF TKD, but I am of the belief that the forms should represent what the art is. I don't feel TKD forms were created with this in mind bearing in mind that the art was just being born when the forms were created and had not had time to evolve and come into it's own.

There is such a wealth of knowledge about realistic self defense, practical fighting, applying kicking techniques in real life, grappling etc etc which was not about back when TKD was born. I think TKD could and should include these things along with the mechanics of how the art is ACTUALLY performed by it's practitioners.

What I envision isn't just changing a few patterns, it's a rebirth of the art of Taekwondo from a broken down form of karate where everything good has been developed seperate to the forms and traditional practices of the art, into a unique codified systemized practical fighting art which trains its self from it's forms as the other classical martial arts do.

A complete modernisation would probably loose forms altogether or simply have them as things made up by the student, however much of the longevity of a system is in its forms. Last night I was out in a park until 2am practicing Karate kata. With no partner and no pads/bag to work on I could still find hours of solo training that involved more than boring repetition and which help internalise one's technique in a much deeper way.
When I'm old and can't fight so well I still will have those routines to help keep my body and mind active. Just as when I was a beginner wondering about forms encouraged me to experiment and develop my application of movement and helped me develop physically, so for me loosing forms is out of the question. Remaking them, and in doing so remaking TKD I think would have much value and do wonders for the reputation of the art.

You can superimpose whatever you want onto an arts movements, but if ever someone did as I suggest and actually developed forms with real meaning, TKD poomse would look so different especially at higher levels you'd wonder if you were in the right class.

PS
This actually fits into the TKD a fragmented art discussion as well. If the art is restructured around the modern practices of TKD, Poomse would be changed to match line work, which would be changed to match sparring, which (unless your school wanted to still focus on the sport scene) would be changed to match realistic self defense, which would match the Poomse. Making TKD a unique systemised fighting style and giving it back some respect.


Edited by Shonuff (04/03/08 10:33 AM)
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#328329 - 04/03/08 05:16 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

My main issue is that I see TKD has grown well beyond it's early Karate based bounds into it's own unique art and this is not represented in the forms trained. I can only speak really for myself and I've only really experienced WTF TKD, but I am of the belief that the forms should represent what the art is. I don't feel TKD forms were created with this in mind bearing in mind that the art was just being born when the forms were created and had not had time to evolve and come into it's own.




I would add that much is the same for the ITF as well. They did add on patterns, going from a few Tuls to 20, then 24, with 1 being replaced entirely in the early 80s to incorporate new techniques that came into play after the early days of the 50s & 60s when the 1st Korean forms were created by Gen Choi & his followers.
There have also been some modifications over the years, but still many are still close to their Karate roots. What has changed dramaticaly was the movement the patterns are done with.
I luv patterns & they have benefits. However I see little relevance to SD. I understand that people kike Choi Kwang Jo & others have done some fighting forms. I am not that familiar with them, although I had the pleasure to see him perform some.

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#328330 - 04/20/08 10:50 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
I can only speak to the songham taekwondo forms. I'll agree that the forms, on the face of them, are not well related to sparring. However, forms add value both as an excercise (mental and physical) and in seeing how moves work together. Forcing a student to apply a technique from an awkward transition creates versatility and flecibility that would not develop naturally if all we did was spar and line drills.

To say that forms should be done away with is not far from saying that formal stances should be done away with. Whe ever uses a formal stance in their sparring?? Still, the differences between front, middle, back, and rear stances represent important ideals for body position and alignement to effectively deliver a technique.
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#328331 - 04/29/08 05:56 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jeff_andle]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
I didn't say forms should be done away with, I said I think they should be re-invented to illustrate what TKD is and what it should be as opposed to what it never was as is current.

Formal stances, as with any aspect of the art, should only be kept if those who keep them understand how to train and use them and how they relate to combat (note I say combat as opposed to sparring).
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#328332 - 04/30/08 06:47 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

Formal stances, as with any aspect of the art, should only be kept if those who keep them understand how to train and use them and how they relate to combat (note I say combat as opposed to sparring).




new thread brewing about "traditionalist vs. modernist" interpretation (aka "martial" vs. "art".)
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#328333 - 04/30/08 06:59 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jeff_andle]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK


new thread brewing about "traditionalist vs. modernist" interpretation (aka "martial" vs. "art".)




Oh no not another one. I'm a traditionalist myself but mainly because I usually go for the least trendy option!

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#328334 - 04/30/08 06:52 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jeff_andle]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
It doesn't need a new thread as it is the essence of this discussion. Do you have an opinion on it or any other aspect of this discussion?
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#328335 - 05/01/08 09:27 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

Do you have an opinion on it or any other aspect of this discussion?




Nobody that knows me would ask if I have an opinion on ...

I'm a half-Irish, half French American. It also entitles me to a mixed opinion!

Yes, I do have an opinion. I consider myself to be a student and teacher of traditional martial arts (lower case "martial") whose mission is to preserve and spread the knowledge of the forms and principles of martial arts within the present constraints of my civilization and culture. Of course those constraints are geographically diverse.

Being that I live in a safe, small, American city, that means that my instruction and spreading of knowledge is best done de-emphasizing the MARTIAL art.

That said, my personal training and the training that I give certain students does not de-emphasize it.

Not to dilute this aspect of the topic but I have another question for others:

Within the constraints of your physical ability and power, do you find it easier to win a match with fewer rules or with very controlled rules? To clarify, I have done a limited amount of olympic sparring and a fair amount of unstructured free work but I only compete in very controlled point sparring. I find it much more challenging to "win" a light contact, controlled match than I do to completely dominate an opponent. (And NO, I don't mean against my students but against my peers). In fact, I find that there is very little room between getting a "point" first and breaking ribs or wrists...
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#328336 - 05/01/08 05:34 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: jeff_andle]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Now that's one for another thread
And by the way I missed your opinion, split or otherwise, on the thread topic?

But as this debate has died I'll throw in 2 cents.

Surely your ability to dominate your peers is indication of either their weaknesses at higher contact levels or your aptitude for said contact levels (or some combination of the two)?
The latter factor is where I see much of the "art" of martial art. The expression of personality traits in combat.

For myself who grew up bigger and stronger than my peers until late teens (when I stopped and they caught up) I've always found it hard to cut loose and strike to hurt or overpower people, so I've steered closer to light contact practice and until recently found it easier to win there.

WTF got me over that a little, but learning how to fight with power and not telegraph or slow down or over-extend was and is it's own challenge, one which is often overlooked as most people think cutting loose is easy and forget that full power MA is not brawling.
More recently boxing helped me get comfortable at going reasonably close to full power fighting.

I realised that IMO emphasis on control from the outset in an MA is a bad thing. Joe Average in modern western society needs to learn to find and channel his (and especially in my experience her) aggression into correct technique. Only then will he have something which needs controlling. Without developing the inner wild animal, training for control is like putting a leash on a milking cow.


Edited by Shonuff (05/01/08 05:37 PM)
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#328337 - 05/01/08 07:34 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
to clarify, I appreciate the martial (fighting) aspect and i train in it but the majority of my emphasis is on traditional art (forms and technique). This is partially a matter of my instructor's philosophy and partially a socio-economic reality.
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