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#328238 - 03/13/07 09:54 AM Should they re-invent their forms
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
I am thinking of the WTF, I've never trained ITF, although I'm sure this question could be applied to them too.

Should Taekwondo do away with the patchwork forms they made up in a fit of rigteous anti-japanese nationalism and either do away with forms altogether, or decide on stylistic combat principles, self defence techs and training drills and design a set of new forms with complimentary training that they can use to reform the art en masse?
Or should they just keep their forms and carry on as normal?
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#328239 - 03/13/07 12:52 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
The Taegeuks are the only ones that we do. I'm not a big fan of patterns but I see no reason why they should be changed.
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#328240 - 03/13/07 01:04 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
oldcoach Offline
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 130
They might, some day, now that they're doing international poomsae competitions.

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#328241 - 03/13/07 03:47 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
i think that the kup level forms in ITF (Chang Hon TKD) whic is what i have experience of. do not reflect the art of taekwon-do or the taekyun part anyway?

it is not until you get further up the patterns that you see movements that you could say are taekwon-do as opposed to shotokan karate.

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#328242 - 03/13/07 04:00 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I agree with Dereck, I don't think the tuls I do are the most effective way to train, but I find them interesting I suppose and understand that others find more enjoyment in them.

Quote:

decide on stylistic combat principles




Could you explain this term a bit? I'm just not really sure what you mean.

Quote:

design a set of new forms with complimentary training that they can use to reform the art en masse?
Or should they just keep their forms and carry on as normal?




I don't think TKD forms are necessarily worse than any other style's ones, therefore I would either keep forms or get rid of them altogether, rather than try to create another set.

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#328243 - 03/13/07 04:21 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Supremor]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Taekwondo has become it's own animal since it's creation. While it is still mostly made up of Karate movements it has developed it's own science for applying them, plus as I understand it the art of Hapkido is slowly being absorbed by taekwondo. The forms that exist currently do not express how taekwondo is used or how it could/should be used. They don't in my view express anything other than a desire to not be Japanese.

Deciding on combat principles specific to the style/art that is taekwondo is what I meant. That is deciding on methods for defence and attack for use in actual combat as opposed to sport, that can/do form the basis of the fighting art.

The purpose of forms has always been to encapsulate such principles and provide a base for training.

Ashihara and Enshin Karate have both done away with traditional Karate forms because they didn't reflect how they saw fit to use karate so practicing them gave them nothing when they trained. I personally think TKD should take the same leap.


Edited by Shonuff (03/13/07 04:27 PM)
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#328244 - 03/13/07 04:28 PM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

plus as I understand it the art of Hapkido is slowly being absorbed by taekwondo.




I'm not sure I believe this statement. There are many schools that have Hapkido blended with their Taekwondo, mine does. My feeling is that either you do or you don't. I doubt schools that don't just deciding to incorporate it slowly, they would need to have some time of original influence. My feeling is those schools have been training their Taekwondo for years and they pass down to their Instructors the same teachings and they will carrying on and pass down what they learned to their new Instructors. If anything I see more of a watering down of the system and not additions to their systems. Don't get me wrong, there may be a few schools doing just what you said but the majority are doing far less and becoming so commercialized that they are forgetting much of what Taekwondo originally meant. IMO
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#328245 - 03/14/07 02:37 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Paulol]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
I personally do not think that the Chang Hon TKD Tuls should be altered. They have been diluted and obscured enough as it is. Quite a few stances / postures and movements can be seen not only in Shotokan Patterns, but also in many KungFu styles, including Wing Chun. Also what are taught as blocks are in fact strikes or breaks.

I think the problem with Tuls lie in our perception of what a Tul really is.
We look at the whole as if we were being attacked in a poorly choreographed Martial Arts movie. This makes us feel that what we are performing are not only outdated, but in most cases almost suicidal movement sequences.

Treat each Tul as a phrase book. Look at the movements in short sequences.
Think about the blocks/punches in relation to the stance that there are in and the stance that they came from. Look at other traditional styles and how they do their patterns. Ask them for their movement explanations.

There is so much you can learn from these Tuls, if you donít throw them away.
We used to have a guy called Sonjin (I think). He had a great approach to Tuls.
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#328246 - 03/14/07 03:54 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: Shonuff]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
As I understand it the WTF have changed the forms once or twice already.

Chang Hon wise, I think the tul syllabus is pretty good with the patterns showing a variety of different hand techniques which are also used in 3-step. 2 step etc. Some of these are also brought into free-sparring (unlike in WTF competition sparring).

What I think does need to happen is greater instruction on the application of techniques within the forms. That and more 'reality' training generally.
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#328247 - 03/14/07 04:33 AM Re: Should they re-invent their forms [Re: trevek]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
I don't know the tuls, are they ITF?

From what I've seen of tkd forms they just aren't well put together. There are techniques but no fighting strategy although as I said I can only really speak for wtf forms.
Trevek, you mentioned that some techniques from your patterns can be used in #-step sparring and some could be used in free sparring. My point is that everything in your forms should be reflected in either free or one step sparring and applicable outside the dojang. If you guys can work your forms to deliver a complete understanding of combat and fighting methods and street applicable training drills though that is great and I do not dispute it one way or the other.

What I was really refering to is the way modern tkd fights in relation to how the forms say it should be done. New forms could make use of the highly functional upright side on fighting stances greater use of kicks and boxing style hand work that has become more prevalent, as opposed to heavy use of deep stances which retard kicking and general movement (two of the most important parts of tkd as I was taught it) and old style heavy hand work (reverse punches, chopping attacks etc).
As I said TKD has grown beyond the stunted Karate of it's roots and become it's own animal and I think it should revamp and re-traditionalise its self to reflect this.
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