FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 40 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
old1, Leonar, ManLar, Vimido, raya
22925 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 4
Ronin1966 3
GojuRyuboy13 2
AndyLA 1
Matakiant 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
Recent Posts
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
Yesterday at 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Forum Stats
22925 Members
36 Forums
35582 Topics
432510 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 13 of 14 < 1 2 ... 11 12 13 14 >
Topic Options
#326839 - 05/03/07 08:47 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

respectfully, I disagree. during the 20th century, I believe only a translated image of Okinawan Karate ever propegated to Japan. Motivations to make something look 'more Japanese' is not a reason of function but of perception. Things were lost in that translation.

The movements you see in 'standard' Shotokan kata are corruptions. I suppose that is style-bashing in a way, but thats what one person sees. others have different opinions. one opinion isn't meant to carry anything more than one opinion, so I hope nobody reads it as such.




I dont think that is style bashing more than likely the truth. Corruption and poss hidden and not just in Shotokan. I am slowly finding out that other mass marketed styles seem to have the same problem with kata. I am speaking from only kata I have knowledge of and not the complete style because I seem to find that each style I look at (particulerly from the top ranks) has something good in it.
But.
One of the kata's I am looking at at the moment is shotokan's version of jion.
I think I see some of the corrupt/hidden part's and I think I see what I think is possable the true intention. Dont get me wrong. I would never claim to be an expert and in some cases I might be wrong. I think you might call it a hunch. I would have to be able to prove my findings should it ever get that far.

Quote:


The main aspect that has changed in kata movement is the interpretation of which range kata principles show. During the 40's thru 60's, Karate made an atempt to transition to a sport-based Art. many kata and curriculum were 'standardized' during this time. One of the ways it standardized is in the interpretaion of what the Art was changing towards: long-distance sport point fighting. and the kata changed accordingly to match that change in intent.




I can see that point but surely that would only apply to none traditional karate? Not certain direct lineage of Okinawan goju?
Quote:



many kata we see today in commercial dojo reflect that standardized kata...then during the 90's or so, it once again became important to utilize kata as a tool for functional non-sport application. well, that poses a bit of a problem if your starting point is with kata that was modified for different reasons. see? not 'hidden', just undiscovered.




and that one except on a kata such as sepia there were intended hidden techniques.

“Sepai translates as "18 hands", and is of Chinese origin. It contains many hidden techniques designed to confuse the opponent in combat. It is said to be impossible to understand the true meaning of the techniques by simply watching them performed. It is considered a tiger kata and is a continuation of Seisan.”

I agree totally with that statement.
Quote:


my suggestion is to put the kata aside and just do 2-person drills with increasing level of resistance....and then just find what you find. Do that for 5-10 years or so, then revisit the kata and you'll see it differently. you also won't be afraid to change it to match what you now know to be better utility.
At that point kata becomes a useful tool. it's about discovery. not unlocking hidden secrets or pursuing those claiming to have the 'key'.




I think my goal at this moment with Jion is to find a practical use for it as regards the techniques that could be used as a 2 man drill. If all this works or not who knows.
Its early days. I think I have worked out some use full techniques but I suppose time will tell.

Quote:


someone did an interesting book/study: '5 years, one kata' ...I've thought an interesting counter-perspective would be '5 years, NO kata'.
If a traditional kata-centric Karateka stepped away from kata for 5 years and studied a non-kata related Art, would they later go back? If they did, their kata would possibly have alot more meaning.




Possable but I dont think there is much point in training just kata. But I enjoy the research on kata.
There is one thing that keeps re-occuring. From the kata sepia. Sometimes I see stand alone techniques being drilled in fairly modern kata less kempo style. The exact thing's exist in the original Okinawa sepia kata and the associated two man drills. I posted it some where to stormdragen.

So it would seem at some time fairly recently someone extracted techniques from the original katas albeit it that some one initialy created the kata from such techniques years ago as a form of living dictionary of techniques . A bit like the chicken and the egg thing .


Edited by jude33 (05/03/07 08:51 AM)

Top
#326840 - 05/03/07 04:38 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Ed,
I think your view is essentially correct but the details we differ over are quite important.

Firstly when discussing the changes in Shotokan kata one must be aware that the changes made in a club or an association are not necessarily changes to the style its self. What I practice is not JKA Shotokan, what I practice has changed over the years based on the writings of Nakayama, Funakoshi (Gichin and Kenneth) and on the study I have undertaken on my own. What I do is still Shotokan. There is a wide range of variation in technique which comes under this banner.

I think one thing that the mma/grappling/"real self defence" trend has pushed into popular consciousness is the idea that unless you are fighting close quarters you are fighting incorrectly. Real fights occur in every range from ground grappling to weapons range and a martial artist should have the means to defend themselves in any of those, however that does not make specialising in one range (such as ground work or long range striking) a flaw.
The Kata Funakoshi learned from Itosu and brought to Japan were altered from older versions. There is no explanation behind why these changes were made all is speculation. Those who think Shotokan is useless Japanese gymnastics say it was to protect school children.
Personally I think it was to systemise a large number of kata into a training regime that repeated its self as little as possible to provide a graduated teaching syllabus that passes on the bulk of Karate strategy and technique, where the older forms of the kata were meant as almost complete systems in their own right and were hence studied in groups of between 3 and 5 by masters past.

Gigo Funakoshi may have made changes based on aesthetics. He may have made changes based on sport (although I can't quite see how altering movements in kata make competetion easier/better etc). We do not know why the changes were made and as with Itosu's changes the opinions one has of Shotokan as an art will shape whatever bias one holds. The one thing that is known is that Yoshitaka Funakoshi was the son of a man who had spent nearly his whole life learning Karate from some of the biggest names in the history of the art. We also know that he was entrusted with learning and then "Shotokanising" new kata. Again it is just opinion, but I feel that it is likely that someone who devoted his life to karate and disaproved of sport and who advocated understanding through study of kata and hard training (I mean Funakoshi Gichin) would see to it that his son did not remove anything of value.
Perhaps this approval of the modernising and Japanising of Karate is where the statement about long stances being for begginers came from; a note to understanding some of the changes.

The changes Nakayama made were to make Karate were to systemise and make the movements more scientific, not to make sport easier (he does state in Dynamic Karate that sport alone will cause karate to deteriorate). This was based on an understanding of the surface movements only, i.e. block punch and kick. It was all he had been taught and from old footage I have seen, it is possible that many of the kata Funakoshi brought over were even emptier of movements than the Nakayama incarnations. As I understand it Nakayama researched his technique with his contemporaries in Karate and he began training in the days before heavily rule bound competition when sparring matches meant leaving teeth on the floor.

I know of no major changes to Shotokan technique after Nakayama's, making any following variations school specific.

When I discuss kata, my main references are Karate Jutsu, Karatedo Kyohan and any JKA reference I have handy (as the JKA follow on from Nakayama), the technique and movements found in these three sources are what I consider as Shotokan from a technical point of view and even though there is variation between them, I can see and understand how they are ultimately the same as the essence has not changed.

I feel that the applications are still inherent in the Shotokan kata sequences, whether this means they are hidden or undiscovered I do not know.

Your suggestion of putting aside kata in favour of partner drills is pretty much what karate has been for the pre-bunkai centric generation. Practice solo kata, solo kihon (broken down solo kata) and drills. A few less solo exercises and a few more partner drils won't make a huge difference especially if you have nothing on which to base your drills. The new wave should be doing more drills but based on kata applications. A basis for partner work is in my view the biggest point of kata.
Assuming one does not understand the kata at all what then does one drill? As you stated it would require moving off into another art. But what you learn as utility from that art may have nothing to do with utility in Karate. How does kata become useful after you practice something different?
What then is the value of Karate, why practice it at all if it needs us to dedicate 5-10 years in another art to make use of it?
Just out of curiosity Ed, is this what your own training is based around, or was this suggestion aimed at those who train shotokan and similarly altered Karate styles?
If one has no clue of useful applications to their kata then I agree, abandoning one's art after taking their sparring technique to it's limit is probably the best option for continued development.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#326841 - 05/03/07 06:11 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no, not only Shotokan kata. just giving some ideas in general while using Shotokan as an example.
I guess my point was sometimes cross-training gives other perspectives that we wouldn't otherwise see or be exposed to.

Top
#326842 - 05/10/07 02:58 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Ed,
similarly altered Karate styles?
If one has no clue of useful applications to their kata then I agree, abandoning one's art after taking their sparring technique to it's limit is probably the best option for continued development.




Hi

Update
I dont think the katas shotokan /wado /shito etc are to much altered that practical and good techniques can still be gained from them. Regards hidden techniques. I think from my kata studies that other styles are just as equal in disguising/hiding techniques in kata.

Shotokan is known for its linear movements?
well the kata techniques I have found seems to show the other side. Early days still




Niju Hachi Ho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRRYDRSItk&mode=related&search=



Sensie Kanazawa doing Niju Hachi Ho. It has been said that he learned it from an older master in Okinawa years ago.

I think the top dan karate-ka know all about their kata and application.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/10/07 03:30 AM)

Top
#326843 - 05/10/07 03:43 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Looks good to me, I wish the shotokan I have been exposed to was more like this vid. And for all the shotokan guys who will say that they don't know what I am talking about because their shotokan is and always was performed in this manner I have never persoanlly seen a shotokan kata with such moderate stances and a feel similar to shorin ryu before.

Top
#326844 - 05/10/07 06:13 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Looks good to me, I wish the shotokan I have been exposed to was more like this vid. And for all the shotokan guys who will say that they don't know what I am talking about because their shotokan is and always was performed in this manner I have never persoanlly seen a shotokan kata with such moderate stances and a feel similar to shorin ryu before.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTpUpbuwikc ?

The other side to how people see shotokan perhaps?

Seienchin and sepia both
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si0MwppdegE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyPMBPF4bqo

In a shotokan syllabus.
That means in effect with the bunkia from all katas how will the karate ka look?


Times are changing. I think the higher the grade the less style orientated.


Mas Oyama studied both shotokan and goju or perhaps he just studied karate. Either way there it is.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/10/07 06:56 PM)

Top
#326845 - 05/12/07 04:55 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:

Ed,
similarly altered Karate styles?
If one has no clue of useful applications to their kata then I agree, abandoning one's art after taking their sparring technique to it's limit is probably the best option for continued development.




Hi

Update
I dont think the katas shotokan /wado /shito etc are to much altered that practical and good techniques can still be gained from them. Regards hidden techniques. I think from my kata studies that other styles are just as equal in disguising/hiding techniques in kata.

Shotokan is known for its linear movements?
well the kata techniques I have found seems to show the other side. Early days still




Niju Hachi Ho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRRYDRSItk&mode=related&search=



Sensie Kanazawa doing Niju Hachi Ho. It has been said that he learned it from an older master in Okinawa years ago.

I think the top dan karate-ka know all about their kata and application.

Jude




Nijuhachi / Nepai / Nipaipo / 28 hands.
Gokenki thaught it in the first half of the 20th century. A version described in the Bubishi. It is a hakutsuru kata (white crane). Toon-ryu and Shito-ryu have a version.

Regarding hidden techniques. In the JKF Goju-Kai manual regarding Sepai (2th edition) it is explained that Chinese masters would intentionally create difficult kata (meaning with hidden techniques) so that technique thieves, wandering from dojo to dojo, would not be able to understand the techniques just by viewing the performance of the kata.

Top
#326846 - 05/12/07 05:09 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Mas Oyama studied both shotokan and goju or perhaps he just studied karate. Either way there it is.

Jude





Mas Oyama studied Goju-ryu with Cho Nei Cho.
Cho Nei Cho was one of the founding members of the Ritsumeikan University karate club with Gogen Yamaguchi and Jitsuei Yogi (around 1935). They studied with Miyagi Chojun for a while but learned most from Jitsuei Yogi. Jitsuei Yogi was a senior student of Chojun Miyagi (he was Okinawan). Cho Nei Cho was Korean like Mas Oyama. All of them were very important in the establishment of the JKF Goju-Kai.

Top
#326847 - 05/14/07 08:40 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: CVV]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Thanks CVV


Thanks for your input.
It gives more names to research.
Did you ever come across the fact there might be a difference between -te(ti) and kara-te(ti)? and its been said that some modern karate styles contains no -te(ti)?


With sepia and hidden techniques. I agree. I get headaches all the time. If you have any thoughts on the kata then you could always PM me.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/14/07 09:01 AM)

Top
#326848 - 05/15/07 07:03 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Did you ever come across the fact there might be a difference between -te(ti) and kara-te(ti)? and its been said that some modern karate styles contains no -te(ti)?





Some say that toudi refers to teachings imported from China and ti refers to native Okinawan MA.

Miyagi refers in the meeting of the masters in 1936 towards the name of the fighting art he teaches as ti or te and explains that an art is named differently in different periods, even in China.

I once heared a Shorin-ryu master explain that real ti starts where kata ends. He meant that the movements/techniques in the kata are not definite form in combat. As such additional knowledge derived from older 'ti', wich was practised with far more emphasis towards self defense, will give more possibilities in combat.

Look at the 48 drawings for self-defense in the Bubishi. Most styles will find these principles back in their kata curriculum. In older days there were no styles. So maybe the principles of fighting is referred to as ti. Some say that ti postures can be found back in Ryukyu traditional dances.

I believe that ti refers to a practical knowledge of fighting that can help you analyse kata. The knowledge of ti is build gradually as you research yourselve and learn from others. This puts us again in the chicken/egg dilemma. What was first kata or ti ?

The question is not does modern karate contain ti ? But do you search for answers when practicing kata so that the kata will become part of you. If your training only evolves around a good performance of the kata with correct speed and balance, good stance and correct execution of technique in coordination with breathing and movement, but at least in regard towards practical use in mind, i think your ti is weak.

But from the performance of the kata, it is not possible to see that. This brings us back to the hidden techniques in kata.

Top
Page 13 of 14 < 1 2 ... 11 12 13 14 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga