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#326829 - 05/01/07 02:53 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Tanaka's performance of Jion is textbook but it still does not give any clue to application (unless I missed a bit)?

B.




Hi Barad.
I dont think I did give any clues to the application.
Temple kata Chinese

Can you look in your messages? PM


Edited by jude33 (05/01/07 02:56 PM)

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#326830 - 05/01/07 10:05 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no such thing as hidden technique. there are only undiscovered ones.

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#326831 - 05/02/07 02:45 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

no such thing as hidden technique. there are only undiscovered ones.




At this moment in time I am tending to dis agree. I am learning there are both. Hidden and undiscovered.

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#326832 - 05/02/07 08:05 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
mabey some of you guy's can help me,but does'nt Ti chi ki, mean, showing what the hand is doing?

Now if that is the case,Does it reffer to a hidden technique/an undiscvered one?
_________________________
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#326833 - 05/02/07 09:14 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Isshinryukid4life]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Ti chi ki, as it was explained to me is 'what the hand is doing'.

i understand that to be the actual main use of any movement, of course movements have many uses but for me it is the main intent of learning a technique in the learning process.

ie a punch really is sometimes just a punch, a block really is sometimes just a block.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#326834 - 05/02/07 01:38 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Ti chi ki, as it was explained to me is 'what the hand is doing'.

i understand that to be the actual main use of any movement, of cours emovements hav emany uses but for me it is the main intent of learning a technique in the learning process.

ie a punch really is sometimes just a punch, a block really is sometimes just a block.




Perhaps but this is where I get very very confused.It would seem that some American service men being taught on okinawa years ago didnt know the meaning of the techniques in kata because they didint ask and their term on okinawa was 18 months so the teachers on okinawa sold them what they thought they wanted. To the ones who did ask the answer might have been Ti chi ki' = what the hand is doing'.
A sort of we aint telling you figure it out yourself!
So if it looks like a palm heel block in the kata it can also be a strike and where and how would you use it? etc etc

But on this one I am just speculating. So dont hold me to it
Hi Jim
Jim.

I realy, realy, realy hate figuring things out for myself. It gives me well !
a sort of head ache. I would rather just train. Sweat doesnt give me a head ache. I think if I was a service man on okinawa and they were skint I would have offered them more money to tell/show me the hidden/ not discovered yet secrets. Then they would be mine. All mine.




Right then. Back to life. Back to reality.etc etc


Edited by jude33 (05/02/07 02:23 PM)

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#326835 - 05/02/07 04:03 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
a good starting point giving structure in unloking kata movement is to find a obvious block (or defensive manouver), a strike and grapple application for each movement.

ie ones that really work against a common method of assault, I can't think anyone would need more in a life time, if one is training for self defense. It will be obvious not all karate techniques have the big three applications.

I really like to keep things simple these days and functional, for me that is the true message of Okinawan Karate, some 'secrets' do reveal themselves with correct, prolonged training under a good Sensei. a always remember some secrets are very simple...........

Do I think Okinawan karate is the ultimate martial art, not really but I have a passion for the Ryukyu kingdom and the training suits all my needs.

my apologies I seem to have gone a little of thread.....
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#326836 - 05/02/07 06:33 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
If techniques are hidden in the kata, and the person who 'disguised' them is gone without disclosing them...then the techniques are no longer hidden. They wait to be rediscovered.

but there are alot of caveats. If you look at kata and expect there are hidden technique, first, how can you be sure you are analysing the 'hidden' version and not just a corrupted version from previous misinterpretation?

however, even if you have a corrupted version, and have the view of discovery...then nothing is hidden.

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#326837 - 05/02/07 08:24 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

If techniques are hidden in the kata, and the person who 'disguised' them is gone without disclosing them...then the techniques are no longer hidden. They wait to be rediscovered.

but there are alot of caveats. If you look at kata and expect there are hidden technique, first, how can you be sure you are analysing the 'hidden' version and not just a corrupted version from previous misinterpretation?

however, even if you have a corrupted version, and have the view of discovery...then nothing is hidden.




.
If (This is just an example) one of the kata(temple kata) is said by some one to seem corrupt it would seem(at this moment in time) that the corruption isnt bad enough that the uncanny resembelance to some workable chinese rooted techniques/applications is to be seen.

I think the techiques were initialy hidden by the Japanese at that time.
Hidden because the self defence/fighting techniques werent realy karate-do orientated and of no use to the marketing strategy the Japanese had in mind. Or perhaps they didint know them so they changed the techniques for Aesthetic/ competiton purposes. I think later high ranking Japanese studied the chinese roots so they may have re discovered the original techniques.

Perhaps at this stage undiscovered should have meant re discovered. Undiscoverd may or may not come later.

Either way I like the progress. Slow, but getting there.


Edited by jude33 (05/02/07 08:32 PM)

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#326838 - 05/02/07 11:14 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
respectfully, I disagree. during the 20th century, I believe only a translated image of Okinawan Karate ever propegated to Japan. Motivations to make something look 'more Japanese' is not a reason of function but of perception. Things were lost in that translation.

The movements you see in 'standard' Shotokan kata are corruptions. I suppose that is style-bashing in a way, but thats what one person sees. others have different opinions. one opinion isn't meant to carry anything more than one opinion, so I hope nobody reads it as such.

The main aspect that has changed in kata movement is the interpretation of which range kata principles show. During the 40's thru 60's, Karate made an atempt to transition to a sport-based Art. many kata and curriculum were 'standardized' during this time. One of the ways it standardized is in the interpretaion of what the Art was changing towards: long-distance sport point fighting. and the kata changed accordingly to match that change in intent.

many kata we see today in commercial dojo reflect that standardized kata...then during the 90's or so, it once again became important to utilize kata as a tool for functional non-sport application. well, that poses a bit of a problem if your starting point is with kata that was modified for different reasons. see? not 'hidden', just undiscovered.

my suggestion is to put the kata aside and just do 2-person drills with increasing level of resistance....and then just find what you find. Do that for 5-10 years or so, then revisit the kata and you'll see it differently. you also won't be afraid to change it to match what you now know to be better utility.
At that point kata becomes a useful tool. it's about discovery. not unlocking hidden secrets or pursuing those claiming to have the 'key'.

someone did an interesting book/study: '5 years, one kata' ...I've thought an interesting counter-perspective would be '5 years, NO kata'.

If a traditional kata-centric Karateka stepped away from kata for 5 years and studied a non-kata related Art, would they later go back? If they did, their kata would possibly have alot more meaning.

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