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#326719 - 03/07/07 10:50 AM Temple Boxing - A study of a system
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
The Kata Jitte, Jion and Ji'in All appear to be related in name, structure and technique. This relationship is commonly accepted but I have not found anyone who claims to understand precisely what it is. Were they one long kata? Are they a set of 3 like the Tekki (Naihanchi)? Are they designed to teach different weapons (Jitte - bo, Jion - tonfa, jiin - sai), or perhaps to teach unnarmed defences against weapons? Are they actually related at all?

Personally I think they are related, they seem to have too much in common for it to not be the case. I discount the weapons idea because I can't see the point of trying to teach a weapon without actually holding it. Defences against weapons, I think its certainly possible. Are they one long kata? Even if they were they were split up for a reason. I can't see that it would make any difference to anything.

I think the most likely idea is that they are a set of 3, like the Tekki, which are based on a core idea that is expanded on in the second and third forms in the series.

The main reason I started this thread is to draw the great minds of this site together to try and develop an understanding of these forms in relation to each other. I shall get the ball rolling with the observations/comclusions I have drawn so far but I think this could expand into a very interesting project if there is enough participation. I am hoping to discuss comparitive versions of the forms their application possibilities and the underlying principles present.

Any and all suggestions are welcome.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#326720 - 03/07/07 01:20 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

I am sure there was a recent thread on this and we started talking about Jitte as a bo kata. Anyway, they have been variously explained to me as related kata from the same creator (many common techniques, embusen and salutation) and the same kata interpreted by different people. Who knows? I practice all three but probably go into more depth on Jion in terms of bunkai than the others. They seem a bit too repetitious to be one kata subdivided-why bother repeating the same techniques?

There are various stories about "monks called Jion" but I believe the "ji" bit means something like mercy in Japanese and Jion is a common Japanese temple name, hence Jion (temple sound/bell), Jiin (temple ground) and unrelated in name but sounds similar to Westerners Jitte/jutte (ten hands). I suppose the temple bit has Shaolin connotations but these are hard/impossible to verify. The salutation is a genuine Chinese greeting supposedly, which hints at the origin of the katas.

I will check the Bubishi translation but I do not remember any of these kata being name-checked as old Arhat or Dragon forms from China so they are presumably pure Okinawan, perhaps from Chinese martial artists, before the Japs got their hands on them.

S.

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#326721 - 03/07/07 01:26 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jitte Jion Ji'in

These three kata are said to be found in, Shito-ryu and Shotokan almost exclusively.
Now if these 3 kata are one system the first thing that needs to be established is their order. Personally I think that the complexity of the movements are the key indicator for this.
Jitte is by far the simplest with mostly large linnear movements.
Jion would appear to be the second most complex with a number of quick short sequences and turns to perpendicular lines.
Jiin combines a greater number of smaller movements and advanced footwork, using 45d angles.

Jitte Ten Hands
Jion Refers to Jion-ji temple
Jiin Temple Ground/Mercy

Jutte = Ju or Jutsu + Te
Ju means ten. Te means hand. Ten Hands? OR, Jutsu means "technique." Technique Hands? It's written both ways in different Japanese texts. Like Hangetsu above, this kata also has a name that is counting the number of uses of different techniques in non-repeating instances.

Jion = Ji +on
Ji means Universal Love, tender, gentle, and loving. On means grace, favor, benevolence, or kindness. Take your guess. Supposedly a Buddhist term listed in some ancient texts which no longer is used in modern conversation. Some try to use this to tie Jion back to China. But, there are a bunch of temples in Japan named Jion. Many of them use the above kanji spelling for their names. Jion as a temple name is as common as people named Jones.

Jiin = Ji + In
Ji, just like in Jion, means Universal Love, tender, gentle, and loving In means shadow, shade, or backing assistance. Giving the impression of receiving mercy rather than giving it as in Jion, Jiin might mean "Place of Mercy." or In the Shadow of Kindness. There are probably better ways to translate this, however. Probably another overused name for temples scattered all over Japan.

So that we all know what we are discussing, Video's:

Jitte - Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzLYIaV0bBI
Jitte - Wado ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOmQR_QK4g
Jitte - Shotokai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxEaV6iq59s
Jitte - Shito ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTclr8vsY8k


Jion - Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyxJlGyJcmA
Jion - Shotokan old w/ bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfAfyto-2Qw&mode=related&search=
Jion - Shito ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k__BYm__yqA&mode=related&search=
Jion - Shito ryu, kata & bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOD6CkX4xbw&mode=related&search=
Jion - Wado ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JnKWA2VFjg

Jiin - Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nOIWvxl5sQ
Jiin - Shito ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ3S2GeEiok
Anymore vids of this kata would be appreciated.


The trademark characteristics of these forms are the opening posture - a very chinese right-fist-in-left-palm, the stepping back double blocking opening movement, The swasticker block posture, use of Age uke, striking in kiba dachi - esp with the palm heel, side-of-body strikes (usually hammerfist) from kiba dachi.

Any thoughts?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#326722 - 03/07/07 01:57 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Barad, thanks for the response. what kind of principles or applications do you find in these kata. Do you find they have any in common and if so where do they occur.

In overview, I have found Jitte to be a longfist fighting method. Safety is found by keeping distance and evading attacks while the action of blocking creates a gaurd and forms a bridge to the opponent. Damage is done by accellerating all of ones body weight into the opponent either by stepping or shifting and at close quarters the opponents root and vital points are attacked.

For Jion I had surmised that the whole kata is attacks with defence made up mostly of fang breaking strikes or slipping into close quarters.

I've not really looked at Jiin yet.

If these kata are part of one system then in all likelyhood the first form will be the core. Does anyone have any other ideas about jitte?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#326723 - 03/09/07 08:46 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

I am not sure I can identify the principles particularly. I am not sure also how either kata can be described as longfist in the kung fu sense-none of it looks that similar to me. I just see a number of what seem to me simple, useable applications shown with variations within the same kata, for example:

Jion: the sequence just after second kick and triple punch, the right hand/arm is reached out and left age uke rising strike perfromed. It seems to me to practice receiving say a hook with the right outstretched hand that then makes hikite and striking rising forearm under the jaw and chudan reverse punch to the attackers head, which is now at middle level after the rising forearm strike.

The next identical technique practices this sequence on the other side.

It is then followed by the same outstretched arm going to hikite and rising forearm but instead of a reverse punch to an attacker who has fallen in front of you, after your forearm strike he falls or moves back and you follow with stepping punch (the kiai point.) All three rising forearm strikes and punches, whether stepping or reverse punch, seem to me variations of the same trap and strikes, not one long sequence against the same attacker.

The stepping punch and kiai is followed by closing with manji-uke (swastika posture) and a throw as you turn holding on to your attacker (arms crossed) 270 degrees and throw as the arms come apart at the end of the movement. This is finally followed by a wrist or neck lock as you shift in kiba-dachi with what looks like a short punch but is (IMHO) a lock on something, not a punch. This manji-uke throw (without the turn) and lock is then practiced with a slide to the other side. The throw and lock could have followed any of the forearm/punch combinations but only appear in the kata after the alternative striking combinations have been shown.

The three palm heels seem to practice strikes both sides and the third then proceeds to a similar maji-uke closing and 270 degree throw but with a different locking technique perhaps (hands above head.)

Just an example of my take on it anyway-I know there are many others.

B.

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#326724 - 03/09/07 02:46 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hey Barad

By longfist I mean simply that the techniques favoured are long range, I draw this conclusion from the fact that most of the techniques are stepping techniques in kiba dachi or zenkutsudachi. Especially kiba dachi which minimises available targets to an adversary and gives the maximum stepping distance to accelerate forward, crashing the bodies weight into the opponent.

The applications you describe are pretty similar to my own although I tend to look at the opening age uke punch series is all attacks, striking at incoming limbs rather than blocking and grasping, though one is just as likely as the other and perhaps they are just different layers of the sequence. I think one of the key features is in the Manji uke. It is used for slipping to the outside of an attack, where the high hand grasps the wrist of an incoming punch and pulls it back and high as you step past the punch. The kagi zuki takes perfect advantage of this opening. You could also use the gedan half of manji uke to take advantage of this opening which would drop the opponents gaurd, letting you apply the kagi zuki as a high attack or as a choke hold.

The 45d wedge block sequences I apply as stepping backwards to a 45d line thus pulling around and off balance the guy who is trying the shove you into the wall by your lapels.

I think what we are describing is very mid-close range combat, i.e boxing range which is an order closer than I find in Jutte. fitting the two together would seem to imply that the three kata teach us how to fight in progressively closer ranges making Jiin a mostly close quarter form.

So where are the rest of FA's great kata study minds? Why is the least popular topic of the Forms and application forum, Forms and application.

Barad your contributions are greatly appreciated.

More to ideas to come.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#326725 - 03/09/07 11:27 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

So where are the rest of FA's great kata study minds? Why is the least popular topic of the Forms and application forum, Forms and application.




You mean other than the fact that a lot of guys on here are not shotokan and don't know these kata? Also if you go back you will find a lot of good application discussion on some other more commonly practiced kata outside of Shotokan.

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#326726 - 03/10/07 05:37 AM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Actually Med that was the very reason why I opened the discussion here and put down video's of the forms. Its all guess work and assumption as none of us, (me and barad) know these kata in great depth. No one will be ridiculed for putting up ideas after being asked to contribute to an open study.

I was looking to examine these kata from all angles through open discussion. To give everyone here a form or forms they didn't know and see what could be gleaned from them. What do the forms say to people of different karate backgrounds?

These kata are said to be of Tomari-te origin, so what do people take from the tomari-te forms in their systems?

The techniques of the forms are all very basic, there is nothing significantly shotokan about them and there is always the Shito ryu interpreatations if contributors need a slightly more okinawan view. If you super-imposed techniques of movement and kihon executution from your own system onto this one what would you get from it?

What do the technique sequences and footwork imply based on your current understanding of karate kata.

Observe analyse and constructively discuss.


Edited by Shonuff (03/10/07 06:54 AM)
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#326727 - 03/10/07 04:27 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay, I looked at the videos and here is my take, especially on your assertion that these are Tomari inspired kata. In Matsubayashi Ryu we have a few kata directly from Matsumora Kosaku by way of Iha Kodatsu, his top student. Those kata are Wankan, Wanshu, Passai, and Rohai. If they are Tomari kata I believe your are right in asserting they are basic kata because they don't have the main technique charateristic of Tomari kata, at least those of its greatest master, Kosaku Matsumora. Look at this video. It is not neccisarily what I consider the best representation of my style, but it will show you the technique.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WIdA_ZK1-nw

After the 20th second there is a blocking technique with a trap followed by a striking combo. This blocking technique followed by striking combos is a key to the karate of tomari. It is seen in different variations in all of these Tomari kata in Matsubayashi. Tomari karate is about evading, getting in close to grapple in the clinch range in order to launch striking techniques to eventually take your opponent down and finish them on the ground. It can be used other ways, but this is one of the main fighting philosophies. However, these kata are similar to a kata in Matsubayashi called Ananku. Our Ananku is different from all others. It is an old basic training kata. Almost a tanrenho kata used to train the legs and apply weight to your waza. It combines power generation learned in Naihanchi and footwork used in Pinan kata in a more advanced way. Here is the kata.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R6aTJuPNwOY

Since this is an old kata from Kyan I believe it was the original Ananku that he learned before he went to Taiwan and came back with the one he taught to his other students. This was most likely taught to him by Anichi Arakaki. I believe that these kata teach similar methods and may infact both come from Ananku and then were adapted to the Shotokan school.

As far as application of their specific techniques, it appears pretty straight forward. More of a training kata than a fighting kata. It teaches the basic principles of grabbing and opening an opponent up before you kick so he can't use your imbalance to his advantage; Deflecting followed by uppercut/jodan uke straight punch combination strikes; combat slaps, body checks, distractions, sweeps, unbalancing, etc. It basically teaches a lot of basic shorin ryu striking techs and principles in a Shotokan/Japanese kind of way. It contains many basic/intermediate techniques.

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#326728 - 03/10/07 06:33 PM Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi There,

'So where are the rest of FA's great kata study minds? Why is the least popular topic of the Forms and application forum, Forms and application.'

Im not so sure about the great minds bit, but we have some very good discussions about kata generally,

I haven't joined in on this one as I don't work any of the kata in discussion, so I have little to contribute.

Let the thread hang around, keep putting your ideas up and im sure a few others will join in, but it would seem mainly that we have Shorin, Goju and Isshin ryu people around who discuss kata in some detail.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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