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#326541 - 03/06/07 06:02 PM Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?)
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
I've heard some people argue that due to similarities between Ba Gua and Aiki Jutsu/Aikido, that aiki jutsu/aikido actually comes from Ba Gua. What are your thoughts. What do the historical documents say regarding this issue?

Peace


Edited by tomh777 (03/06/07 06:08 PM)

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#326542 - 03/06/07 06:28 PM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: tomh777]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
There seems to be no direct link between the two arts. There is certainly a dearth of evidence to support such a link.

The thing that gets me is that people seem to think that because Daito Ryu and Ba Gua use circular movements, they must be related

The fact of the matter is, as far as I know, that there are as many linear techniques in Daito Ryu as there are circular. And Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is an amalgimation of various arts studied by Takeda Sensei, most notably those arts of the Oshiki clan. So you can't really say is Aikijujutsu similar to Ba Gua, when Aikijujutsu has such a broad palette of koryu running through it.

Another point. Most styles of traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu also have circular techniques. This feature is not unique to Daito Ryu! Most also deal with multiple attacker situations. Again, this is not common to Daito Ryu. So why is Daito Ryu alone singled out as being similar to Ba Gua? Did all samuari learn Ba Gua, collectively return Japan, then simltaneously develop seperate ryu ? Such an occurence is highly unlikely in the extreme to say the least!!

IMHO any similarities are merely conicidence. Both arts employ similar principles in a FEW areas, but they have far more differences than similarities. They likely had some similar school of thought that influenced them millienia ago, but such things are lost in the mists of time. You could say that is true of all martial arts I suppose.

But as I said, there is no tangible connection between Ba Gua and Daito Ryu.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#326543 - 03/06/07 06:47 PM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: Prizewriter]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

most notably those arts of the Oshiki clan




Unless I'm wrong here, the techniques of Daito Ryu come from the Aizu clan. I believe you are referring to 'oshiki-uchi' which are the secret teachings (Inner Barrier Teachings) of the Aizu. It is still unknown exactly what these teachings were. So far it has been shown that Sogaku Takeda learned: sumo, Hozoin-ryu sojutsu (spear), Ono-Ha Itto Ryu, as well as oshiki-uchi, from Saigo Tanomo.

It's hard to speak of evidence of the two arts (Bagua/ Daito Ryu) being linked, because there isn't any. I don't see all that much similarity either. Daito Ryu is mostly linear techniques based on hitoemi (at least that's how I've learned it.)

If anything, Bagua looks more like modern Aikido, with it's circular motions. However, it's basically been shwon that it's highly unlikely for Ueshiba-sensei to have picked up any CMA training while in China. He was there twice once in the war, once during the Sino-Japanese war, once in Mongolia looking for Shambala. Both times it's unlikely he learned any CMA system, including Bagua.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#326544 - 03/06/07 08:08 PM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: Ames]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Now that I think about it I was probably confusing my "facts" and recall hearing that Ueshiba spent time in China during the Sino-Japanese War where some people contend that he may have been influenced by Ba Gua. What are some books that detail the history of the development of Aiki Jutsu? Unfortunately, my knowledge of Aiki Jutsu history is basically limited to what I've been told by others and not what I've read.

Thanks

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#326545 - 03/06/07 08:49 PM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: tomh777]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Follow this link to some DRAJJ books I know of.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15925591
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#326546 - 03/07/07 08:13 AM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: Ames]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Begging my pardon, Oshiki family. Clan was not an appropriate term. Takeda did study the MA of Aizu clan as far as I know too.

And good for you Tom. Too many people use and abuse the term AikiJu Jutsu, then give a very vague and inaccurate history to further their own needs. Its good that you want to find out for yourself what Daito Ryu was, and indeed, is.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#326547 - 03/07/07 01:57 PM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: Prizewriter]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Prizefighter, I might be misinterpreting you, but I'm not sure what Oshiki family you're referring too. All I know of are the Oshiki-uchi that I described before, and these are a set of teachings. By family do you mean 'family of teachings'? Just trying to clarify

Quote:

And good for you Tom. Too many people use and abuse the term AikiJu Jutsu, then give a very vague and inaccurate history to further their own needs. Its good that you want to find out for yourself what Daito Ryu was, and indeed, is.





I couldn't agree more with you on this point though.

Chris


Edited by Ames (03/07/07 01:59 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#326548 - 03/07/07 02:04 PM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: Ames]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Don't know where my head is at. Yep, by the Oshiki family I meant Oshiki-uchi branch of study that was contained within the Aizu clan sphere of martial study (amongest others). Sorry for the misunderstanding, I have been sleepy these past few days!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#326549 - 03/07/07 02:30 PM Re: Relationship Between Aiki Jutsu and Ba Gua (?) [Re: Prizewriter]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
LOL, no problem man...we've all been there.

Also here are some websites that have pretty decent histories of Daito Ryu:

There's a good amount at this site, most apparently taken directly from a newletter written by Takeda Tokumune. Click on the menu under "History" for more.

http://www.daito-ryu.org/history1_eng.html

This is the Takumakai's history:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm04.htm

And according to the Seishinkai guys:

http://www.daito-ryu.com/en/pag11.htm


Cheers,
Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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