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#326124 - 03/05/07 02:58 PM Just curious about Kung fu
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Hello everybody. A little about myself: I'm a 16-year-old (male) and have been studying Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate for 5 years now. I'm a Shodan (first degree black), and am a Senior-Black belt Sensei for kids classes.

I've always been curious about Kung Fu and the Chinese arts. I'm just wondering if somebody could give me a little overview of what kung fu is all about. As in what kind of forms, (like Karate-kata), sparring, rankings (belts), weapons, and other aspects are there to the art.

I've always wondered about it. Also, are there any decent Kung Fu schools in western Colorado that anybody knows about? I don't plan on quitting Karate, but am at the point that I want to broaden my spectrum of the arts by learning a bit of other styles.

Also, feel free to post links on the page .
Thanks .

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#326125 - 03/05/07 04:18 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
_________________________
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#326126 - 03/05/07 04:45 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Didn't see that thanks

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#326127 - 03/05/07 10:49 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Kung-fu isn't a style. Kung-fu = work over time aka effort. I can put in a lot of kung-fu brewing my tea. I can put in a lot of kung-fu waking up in the morning and going to lectures. And I most definitely put in a lot of kung-fu posting on this forum.

So which quan-fa are you talking about? Taiji-quan, Baji-quan, tanglang-quan, wing chun, pigua-quan, singh-i quan, and bagua-quan are some examples of quan-fa. (Note that wing chun is cantonese)

-Taison out
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#326128 - 03/08/07 10:14 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
tailiugug Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Greeting

I was born in montrose and raised in the western slope. You are not likely to find a (storefront) Gong fu school. But dont let that get you down. there has been Gung fu on the western slope for a very long time. you may or may not know but the railways and the million dollor highway were built mostly by chinesse imergents. and some of them were gung fu masters. I was lucky and found a instuctor who was taught becouse his grandfather had saved a masters life in the late 1800s and so they became "family" and the gong fu was then passed on. my training was done mostly outside at riverbottom park. or in the mountains. I haven't lived "much" back home since i went to japan in 1988. But I know that there is Gung fu there. to find it will take a little pro action on your part. I would make a flyer and post it on as many boards as you can, also take one to every chinesse restaunt that you can find (talk to the owners). I dont know if the martial arts store is still at the mall if so leave one there. I do remember a white crane insturctor on orchard mesa that had many high level students. you might also try the mesa state collage. there might be someone there that has trained elswere, that you could play with. but untill then try reading up on gung fu. When you do meet someone if they show you only the motions of a form and not the fighting application that the form is based on keep looking. dont settle for something that is empty. good luck
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#326129 - 03/10/07 04:37 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: tailiugug]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Thank you very much tail. That is really helpful. The emporium in the mall closed about a year ago (unfortunately, that was my favorite store), but i'll see what I can find. I'll check the college too andask around about the instructor in OM. This is very helpful.

I go to the dojo on North Avenue near the college. I'm not sure if you know Bill Brassette or not, (my sensei), but I'll ask him if he knows anyone who could teach me Kung-fu on the side.

I really appreciate this information. I'll look around and see what I can find

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#326130 - 03/26/07 03:46 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
From what I researched I have found that there are 5 basic styles after the shaolin animals: Tiger, leopard, crane, snake, and dragon. There are also colors along with it if I am correct? Will somebody please confirm this for me?

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#326131 - 03/31/07 11:26 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
ThatSpearGuy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 16
There are about as many animal styles as there are animals, though Dragon, Tiger, Crane, Leopard, and Snake are generally agreed to be the first five created by Shaolin. There are also many other styles that are not directly based off of a particular animal.

Most kung fu systems come from three places - Shaolin, Wu Shan, or Omei. For each of these there are many branches.

Many karate and lay people aren't aware of how many different styles of kung fu there are.

My advice is decide what it is you are looking for in a martial art, then do the research to see which one fits. For example, if you want to go to tournaments and show acrobatics, then Wu Shu would be great for you. Kung Fu ( or Quan Fa )has something for everyone.

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#326132 - 04/02/07 04:53 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: ThatSpearGuy]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Gets even worse if you break it into northern and southern branches- e.g. Both north and south have a preying mantis style, both very different. Interestingly enough though, Karate originaly had its roots in Kung Fu so you're already studying Kung fu (kinda), and even stranger, kung fu suposedly had its roots in Kalaripayat (yep, the indian's taught the chinese who taught the japanese)

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#326133 - 04/03/07 01:25 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Feel free to smack me down here, but I once read that Shorin was the Japanese term for Shaolin. That true??
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#326134 - 04/03/07 02:31 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Prizewriter]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Prizewriter:

Correct, at least one reading of the term anyway as it was explained to me... very, very carefully & slowly

Jeff

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#326135 - 04/03/07 02:59 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Curley:

How would you go about finding another dojo, if it were necessary? As a young person, though with some experience now it will not be the art, but the school & its teacher(s) that will speak to you... Good art, bad teacher.... great teacher, so-so school... you need a match for YOU

Good teacher, right place, right price...

===============
There are many interesting books which will give you the flavor of small parts of different arts:

Jane Hallender's "Complete Guide to Kung-Fu Fighting Styles"(Unique Publications) will likely be a perfect fit to start at least.

Robert Smith: "Chinese Boxing: Masters & Methods"; 1st person stories of modern Chinese Masters & arts.

David Chow & Spengler "Kung Fu: History, Methods & Techniques. General overview.

Donn Draeger & Robert Smith: "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts". (Kodansha Pub.) A tiny bit dryer than some but two of the original western bone-fide experts.

All of which are readily available used... there are other authors whom I could recommend Adam Hsu for example Familiar with any of these names?

Jeff

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#326136 - 04/03/07 03:29 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Prizewriter]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Quote:

Feel free to smack me down here, but I once read that Shorin was the Japanese term for Shaolin. That true??




Yes! You're (somewhat) correct. The "Shorin Ryu" style means "Small forest", which refers to the forest around the Shaolin temple.

This is another reason why I'd like to learn kung-fu. I'm learning some more techniques with a bit of Chinese influence and would like to get a bit of a kung-fu background to help make the most of my art.

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#326137 - 04/03/07 03:37 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Quote:

Gets even worse if you break it into northern and southern branches- e.g. Both north and south have a preying mantis style, both very different. Interestingly enough though, Karate originaly had its roots in Kung Fu so you're already studying Kung fu (kinda), and even stranger, kung fu suposedly had its roots in Kalaripayat (yep, the indian's taught the chinese who taught the japanese)




Interesting you should say that; In our pamphlet that describes our art, (Which we hand out to people that come in interested in learning), it says just that; that the art had influence from Chinese fishermen that visited, (thats where the sai weapons came from too).

It also said that it had some influence in its origins from even India as well... (Chinese fishermen learned it from there too). I just remembered that when you said that lol.

As I said in the post above; I'm getting much deeper into the art and have started learning more about the origins and some other techniques.

Unfortunately i'm having trouble finding a good school, (or teacher for that matter), to learn the art from.

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#326138 - 04/05/07 04:41 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
True, finding a good school is a hassel at times, but you are in the right place at least to learn the background. A good starting point for you could be to wade through the Karate posts in the reading room. There's some good discussions pertaining to the differences. Check out http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=317 raises some interesting points. The other source if you want to start learning are the video posts- while no replacement for a teacher, you're welcome to come back here with any questions or if you're looking for our appraisals of what's going on and why.

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#326139 - 04/05/07 08:31 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Curly:

<<Karate originaly had its roots in Kung Fu

The art I study, most of us study may have ~ancestry~ from our asian cousins at some point (whether a very recent association or an ancient one)... but became & exists as something unique-different autonimous, an "adult" if you will all by itself today!

<<started learning more about the origins and some other techniques.

Exploring is a wonderful thing

<<Unfortunately i'm having trouble finding a good school, (or teacher for that matter)

Finding a good school, a good teacher regardless of the particular skill/practice is 90% of the entire battle, the rest you bring with you ! Familiar with any of the books/names previously mentioned? Unable to find a school, as yet knowledge would be a beginning...

Jeff

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#326140 - 04/05/07 10:47 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
tailiugug Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Hey Curly

Just checking in with you, have you tried any of the ideas i posted earlyer? with respect to comments and the roots of your style. Its has been my experince, that traditional "karate" gets alot Softer and less riged the higher you get in the forms as well the tech's that help you relax and "flow are often taught to the teachers "disiples"... as far as just were any combat art comes from is les important to me as the combat that ultimently texted & profected it. this alone should be enough insperation for one to true research their arts history (are any of the forms in the style based on a recorded battle)(is this form a combination of small encounters or fights)my point is asking the right question can open many doors to your martial quest... good luck
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#326141 - 04/11/07 06:24 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: tailiugug]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
"asking the right question can open many doors".... Come on man, we're not the Free Masons

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#326142 - 04/15/07 01:16 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
if you're going for Karate origin then I would find myself an art probably geographically closest to Japan. So far the big similarities come from arts that originate in Fujian. Something like Fujian White Crane? or maybe Five Ancestors?
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#326143 - 04/17/07 04:55 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: IExcalibui2]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
I've never seen Karate employ anythingthing close to white crane dude, two MA styles known for the use of hooks, Mantis, and Crane, not Karate. lol. Off your case now. Stylistically from what i've seen (though not practiced), Wing Chun looks similar at times to Karate, both tending towards linear motion (Alright I agree, open hand techniques to come into play at higher dans), and both have a pretty balanced focus on kicks as well so they may complement one another. You may have problems with the stance though because Wing chun uses a traditional right foor forward stance (correct me if I'm off track)

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#326144 - 04/17/07 07:15 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I'm sorry but uh Karate's Sanchin kata is derived from the Sanchin forms found in Fujianese MA, which include Fujian White Crane.
Sanchin

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#326145 - 04/18/07 01:39 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: IExcalibui2]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Ok, true, though you're talking 1 form developed by a man who never studied white crain (Mijagi had a friend who did though...) + we're also talking a Kata from Goju-Ryu (not sure on that but pretty sure) which shouldn't bear many similiraties to Shorin-ryu anyhow as they were both very early forms of Karate without common ancestery.

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#326146 - 04/18/07 02:19 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
how can the same form be derived without having the same influence? And have the same name for that fact. Whether or not Karate has anymore similarities to Fujian White Crane is a different story, but he asked for origins of Karate and Fujian is one of those places that influenced what was eventually developed as Karate.

I mean can tell you that BJJ came from Judo even though the arts have diverged into 2 separate things today.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#326147 - 04/18/07 03:27 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: IExcalibui2]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I mean can tell you that BJJ came from Judo even though the arts have diverged into 2 separate things today.




I read somewhere sometime ago that there are similarities between Aikido and Bagua, at least conceptually.

But as for the speculation on Okinawan Te's conceptual origin and the arts like WuZu and white crane from Fukien Province, one can surmise that even in terms of language one can see that the older generation of Okinawans (before 18th century Japanisation) spoke a dialect known as "Hogen" which is exactly what the people of Fukien Province call themselves and their dialect, for 'Fukien' is the mandarin pronunciation of 'Hogen' Ask Leo, he speaks or at least understands Hogen which is spoken by the older generation of Singaporeans, 3 quarters of whom (including my wife) trace their ancestral roots to Fukien Province. I got the feeling that you speak cantonese.

It makes sense because how else could the pioneering Okinawan masters like Miyagi have gone to China, principally to Fukien Province, and be taught anything unless there was some commonality of language, which presumed some commonality of ancestry, to persuade the then xenophobic Chinese to part with anything martially useful to those old Hogen-speaking Okinawans?
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#326148 - 04/18/07 03:31 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: IExcalibui2]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Cool. The lack of similarities to white crane was all i was getting at actually.

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#326149 - 04/18/07 07:18 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

I read somewhere sometime ago that there are similarities between Aikido and Bagua, at least conceptually.




From what I have heard, Usheiba went to China prior to developing Aikido and learned Bagua. The throws in Aikido come from Cheng style Baguazhang.
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#326150 - 04/18/07 07:53 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Fisherman]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Ah, so that's why they wear those long black skirts, to hide the Bagua footwork perhaps?

Yes, I've learned one particular Bagua footwork which (almost magically) can get you positioned at the back of your opponent before he knew what was happening, which I understand was one of Ueshiba's trademark move.
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#326151 - 05/08/07 12:25 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jimmy, IExcalibui2 and Others that agree are right, what you maybe thinking of is Northern white Crane there are plenty of Southern crane movement in Goju as it is in Shorin-ryu. Remember the Chinto kata (Which translates Crane standing rock) there is lots of subtle crane movements in Karate.

Curly I think Shaolin (5 animal system) and Hung-gar (Tiger Crane) would be a good kuen to train being that you have a Shorin-ryu base.

I've studied several Gung-fu system and was amazed at the similarity in the Karate and Gung-fu. In Gung-fu the moves have to defined then you see how they compare to Karate. Alot of the similar moves are taught camoflauged unless in the simple Gung-fu arts like Wing-chun. Once you know what they are are where to look the similarity are many. One of the difference in Goju (and I'll add Kempo/Kenpo) it never left its connection to Tang. Whereas Shotokan or some of Shorin-ryu speak of not seeing any connection accept through history or kata.

My real base is Goju and we start teaching crane movement at 7th or 8th kyu and throughout Mastering Goju.


Edited by Neko456 (05/08/07 12:30 PM)
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#326152 - 05/08/07 11:47 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

kung fu suposedly had its roots in Kalaripayat (yep, the indian's taught the chinese who taught the japanese)



Chinese fighting styles are indeed believed to have evolved from Indian martial arts (both Bodhiruchi – founder of the Shaolin temple – and Bodhidarma – who supposedly introduced martial arts in there – were Indian, by the way). However, I believe kalaripayat to be posterior to the birth of Chinese so-called 'gongfu' (not sure of that one, I might be mistaken). The source would more likely be vajramukti, a much more ancient Indian martial art which I believe to be mostly lost nowadays.

Quote:

Feel free to smack me down here, but I once read that Shorin was the Japanese term for Shaolin. That true??



Mandarin 'shao' (Cantonese 'siu', Japanese 'sho') = 'few', 'little' (sometimes 'young')
Mandarin 'lin' (Cantonese 'lam', Japanese 'rin') = 'forest'.
'Shorinji kenpo' is the Japanese pronounciation for the characters 'Shaolin-si quanfa' (boxing of the Shaolin temple).

Quote:

"asking the right question can open many doors".... Come on man, we're not the Free Masons



Ah, but historically speaking, the development of the Chinese martial arts owes a lot to secret societies…

Quote:

I've never seen Karate employ anythingthing close to white crane dude



I’m far from being an expert in karate knowledge, but I believe there is a karate kata called 'hakutsuruken'. This name is but the Japanese pronounciation of the Chinese characters for 'baihe quan' (Cantonese 'bak-hok kuen'), which translates in English as white (Mabdarin 'bai', Cantonese 'bak', Japanese 'haku') crane (Mandarin 'he', Cantonese 'hok', Japanese 'tsuru') boxing (Mandarin 'quan', Cantonese 'kuen', Japanese 'ken')...

(note that I translated quan / kuen / ken as 'boxing'. It actually means 'fist', but in those cases it is a metonymy for 'quan-fa' / 'kuen-po' / 'kenpo', which means 'fist technique' and can more or less be translated as 'boxing'.)

Quote:

'Fukien' is the mandarin pronunciation of 'Hogen'



Actually I think 'Fukien' is the local pronounciation, since the Mandarin pronounciation would be 'Fujian'. But I'm sure it's merely a moment’s inattention on your part, since I had the chance in the past to see that your Chinese is miles better than my own...


--------
I heard (not first-hand experience, so I might be mistaken) that karate favors advancing the right foot when right-punching and the left foot when left-punching (which I guess is designed to ad some extra hip-torque to generate more power). In Chinese arts, this would be heresy: punching is always done with the hand on the side of the REAR leg (which we straighten and ‘push the ground’ with, hence generating power too.). These are two very different ways to generate power… So, while karate definitely takes its roots in gongfu, it nonetheless has some original concepts too and has evolved into something different enough (how different is mostly style-dependant: some karate styles look very Chinese, others hardly look even remotely connected…).
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#326153 - 05/09/07 04:08 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
I'm still stikin with my statement Karate guys may have initially studied kung fu or combined their traditional Okinawa MA with what they learnt but damn it I'm puttin the foot down. If Karate guys can say that the servicemen that returned from Japan after only two years study or so aren't teaching Karate, I can say that a few measly Kata, from some old guys prior to the war (not to mention what was lost due to Karate going underground and all illegal etc), who only studied for a brief time or were influenced by white crane and we're only yelling impotently about white crane not other styles of kung fu, *where was i?* does not actually resemble white crane

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#326154 - 05/09/07 11:15 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jimmy have you ever heard of the most reveren and sacred book the 'Bubushi'? Believe what you will but Okinawan Tang/Tode/Te is a slimed down version of Chinese Martial arts. Japanese Karate is base on Okinawan Tang.

Have you ever met any on those two year studied Martial artist or worked with their students? Norris, Lewis, Nagle, Alexzander, and in Japan Urban (just to name a few) are some of the hardest core Martial artist, I've seen. They didn't just rest on their knowledge they continued to study. They probably didn't have the vast knowledge of the Martial art then but they definitley improved as they grew.

You can believe what you want but most of the rest of the world believes and can see that whats called Gung-fu was the base or mixed with Te to produce whats now called Karate.
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#326155 - 05/10/07 01:46 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Neko456]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Oh, yeah, by the way... The very name ‘karate’… The ideogram now used to write the ‘kara’ in’karate’ means ‘empty’. But the reason why Funakoshi Gichin chose it when renaming the art is because ‘kara’ was the alternate pronounciation for the original ideogram, which was pronounced ‘to’ (the art was known as ‘tode’ before Funakoshi introduced it to Japan under the name ‘karate’ for PC reasons. ‘Tode’ was divided into ‘Shurite’, ‘Tomarite’ and ‘Nahate’ styles, depending on the part of Okinawa where it had developed). The original ideogram, which is pronounced ‘to’ (or, as I said ‘kara’) in Japanese and Okinawan, is but the Chinese ‘Tang’ (one of the culturally most brilliant dynasties of the Chinese history), and was the term used in Japan and Okinawa for ‘China’. In other words, the original name of karate doesn’t mean ‘empty hand’ but ‘Chinese hand’. Something that definitely wouldn’t have pleased the utterly nationalistic Japan of the Meiji jidai… Which is why Funakoshi felt the need to rename the art when presenting it to Japan (a smart maneuvre, which might have made the difference between triumphal success and a prompt stoning).

But although the Chinese roots of karate styles coming from tode are very old, a few karate styles have much more recent Chinse origins (they are sometimes referred to as ‘kempo-karate’ styles). Shorinji-kempo is one of them (its founder, as the name quite plainly says, developed it straight from Shaolin boxing). Uechi-ryu is another of those: it was developed by its founder from ‘pangai noon’, a southern Chinese style now extinct…
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#326156 - 05/12/07 02:10 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
Great post tashigae. Very concise and informative.

Not sure about Chinese martial arts evolving from the little forest temple, however, as many wars had been fought in China before then. I believe that Shaolin was more of a martial arts university that greatly refined the fighting arts as the temple housed many fugitives, bandits as well as martial arts teachers during some turbulent times.

Quote:

I heard (not first-hand experience, so I might be mistaken) that karate favors advancing the right foot when right-punching and the left foot when left-punching (which I guess is designed to ad some extra hip-torque to generate more power). In Chinese arts, this would be heresy: punching is always done with the hand on the side of the REAR leg (which we straighten and ‘push the ground’ with, hence generating power too.).




This is totally untrue. There is alot of cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts! When I say cross-matching I mean left foot forward, strike with right arm. Different ways to deliver power. Personally I deliver more power (not that it is that great) when I match sides, but I am still developing.

Quote:

These are two very different ways to generate power…


True. There are many different ways of delivering power. In northern Chinese system, there are 8 directions and many different types of jing (power). Thrusting, penetrating, splitting, crushing, lifting, just to name a few. Even 'forward' force has many ways of being delivered.

Quote:

So, while karate definitely takes its roots in gongfu, it nonetheless has some original concepts too and has evolved into something different enough (how different is mostly style-dependant: some karate styles look very Chinese, others hardly look even remotely connected…).




True and very good point. Ironically enough, karate is probably more intact today then Chinese martial arts!

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#326157 - 05/13/07 02:37 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: northstar]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

Not sure about Chinese martial arts evolving from the little forest temple, however, as many wars had been fought in China before then. I believe that Shaolin was more of a martial arts university that greatly refined the fighting arts as the temple housed many fugitives, bandits as well as martial arts teachers during some turbulent times.




Agreed! A common belief is that ALL Chinese martial arts originate from Shaolin, where they would have been introduced by Bodhidarma (Da-Mo in Chinese). Sounds like nonsense to me. Compared to the amazing length of Chinese history, Bodhidarma's coming to Shaolin almost feels like yesterday (my memory's failing me about the exact time... Wasn't it around 800 AD? Or maybe a few centuries before... Ridiculously late anyway compared to China's 5000-year-old civilization). There's little doubt about the tremendous importance of Shaolin's role, but as for it being the ORIGIN of the arts, it's a hard sell.


Quote:

This is totally untrue. There is alot of cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts! When I say cross-matching I mean left foot forward, strike with right arm.




We are not disagreeing, the method you describe is exactly what I was trying to say by "punching [...] with the hand on the side of the REAR leg". Sorry for being unclear, English isn't my mother-tongue and I sometimes come up with erroneous or uselessly intricated ways to express what I have in mind, when a native speaker would immediately find a much more simple wording...

You say "there is a lot of cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts". If my instructor was here, he would push it as far as "there is ONLY cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts". The way I've been taught it, whenever a taolu seems to have a hand strike matching sides with your forward-leg (which I believe to be rather rare, from my experience), the strike, IF it is one indeed, is actually not the main aim of the move, but is intended as a parry / diversion / setup / etc., the strike being only bonus.

Just what I've been told, not advanced enough myself to make any comments of my own on the subject.

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#326158 - 05/16/07 11:18 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
I don't believe this is true. Only cross matching striking? What if your leading side already has a clear shot, why bother to cross match if your lead side is closer and strong enough?

Personally this is how I prefer to fight though (notorious, cross matching left-leg and right-arm and lead/stick/control with my left.

Look at xing yi with its pi chuan, the first 'fist' you learn. Tan tui (10 segments), even in just basic shaolin movements you still practise striking with both sides. Always up to the individual to personalize and prefer though.

Of course, certain styles would have their own preferences. What system do you practise (don't worry, not going to attack you about it!)? I did practise quite a few northern style forms, but now am only breaking down a couple of forms.

For some reason, I also prefer to intercept and grab the face/gouge eyes for the same reason; sticking on and more control.

Regards !

Quote:

..."there is ONLY cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts". The way I've been taught it, whenever a taolu seems to have a hand strike matching sides with your forward-leg (which I believe to be rather rare, from my experience), the strike, IF it is one indeed, is actually not the main aim of the move, but is intended as a parry / diversion / setup / etc., the strike being only bonus.



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#326159 - 05/18/07 04:35 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Uechi-ryu is another of those: it was developed by its founder from ‘pangai noon’, a southern Chinese style now extinct…





"Pangai Noon" was never a style/system. I saw the Chinese characters somewhere (perhaps in an article on Uechi Ryu) and it stands for "pan" = (ban)half; "gai" = (gang)hard; "noon" = (rou)soft. So it simply means half-hard-half-soft ("ban gang rou") or as Miyagi puts it in Japanese, "Goju"

My view is that Uechi Ryu evolved from the Five Ancestors System found in Fujian Province. Anyway it is also possible (in fact highly probable) that the founders of the various Okinawan Te studied more than one Chinese system (or more likely only a part thereof) and just like our latter-day "masters" stitched them together in some kind of order and 'created' or rather 'quilted' a Te.
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#326160 - 05/21/07 11:56 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Thanks for the info! I keep getting amazed at the amount of false information that circulates in the MA community . This story about a ‘pan-gai-noon’ style was told to me during my very brief Uechi-ryu experience, and confirmed by my Encyclopedia of Martial Arts, so I didn’t bother to question it any further, and it looks like I was wrong…

And thanks for the Mandarin translation too: my knowledge of Guangdong-hua / Guamdong-wa is close to zilch, but I love the way it sounds and am always eager to learn the Cantonese pronounciation of any previously learnt Chinese character.
So, never hesitate to get into the linguistic details: I’m loving it!
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#326161 - 05/22/07 02:40 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: northstar]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

What system do you practise (don't worry, not going to attack you about it!)?



Ooops, forgot to answer that.

I don’t practice a defined system yet. The school I attend (‘attended’, actually, for I left it to come to China 4 months ago and, ironically, have been without instruction since then ) emphasizes mostly the basics (stances, footwork, common kicks and hand strikes, balance, strength, flexibility, etc…). As for taolu, the instructor usually switches styles every two months or so (that is, after every year’s first two forms, which get systematically picked among classic Shaolin-quan), as to give his students a chance to try out a variety of systems before choosing one if they wish to do so (believe it or not, he’s a qualified instructor in more than 30 styles!). The students are free to stick to any studied system they find to their liking. So far I’ve had the opportunity to catch a glimpse of Shaolin-quan, qixing-tanglang-quan, bagua-zhang, baji-quan and tongbei-quan (I studied in this school for less than two years).

How about you? What are those northern styles you studied, and which one do your currently studied forms belong to ?
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#326162 - 05/22/07 12:36 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Dang I haven't been to this thread in a while lemme read through all of the new comments

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#326163 - 05/23/07 01:05 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
I've never argued that some karate styles are influenced by Kung fu, I've merely argued against similarities to White crane. Again Neko, I'm not stating that 2 years in study in one form or another and then a lifetime of study doesn't mean that you won't be a hard core martial artist, I'm just stating that you won't be doing Karate or Kung Fu, you'll be doing MA.

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#326164 - 05/23/07 01:07 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
In any case, we're way off course on the original topic... Still curious about kung fu or have we scared you off?

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