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#326154 - 05/09/07 11:15 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jimmy have you ever heard of the most reveren and sacred book the 'Bubushi'? Believe what you will but Okinawan Tang/Tode/Te is a slimed down version of Chinese Martial arts. Japanese Karate is base on Okinawan Tang.

Have you ever met any on those two year studied Martial artist or worked with their students? Norris, Lewis, Nagle, Alexzander, and in Japan Urban (just to name a few) are some of the hardest core Martial artist, I've seen. They didn't just rest on their knowledge they continued to study. They probably didn't have the vast knowledge of the Martial art then but they definitley improved as they grew.

You can believe what you want but most of the rest of the world believes and can see that whats called Gung-fu was the base or mixed with Te to produce whats now called Karate.
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#326155 - 05/10/07 01:46 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Neko456]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Oh, yeah, by the way... The very name ‘karate’… The ideogram now used to write the ‘kara’ in’karate’ means ‘empty’. But the reason why Funakoshi Gichin chose it when renaming the art is because ‘kara’ was the alternate pronounciation for the original ideogram, which was pronounced ‘to’ (the art was known as ‘tode’ before Funakoshi introduced it to Japan under the name ‘karate’ for PC reasons. ‘Tode’ was divided into ‘Shurite’, ‘Tomarite’ and ‘Nahate’ styles, depending on the part of Okinawa where it had developed). The original ideogram, which is pronounced ‘to’ (or, as I said ‘kara’) in Japanese and Okinawan, is but the Chinese ‘Tang’ (one of the culturally most brilliant dynasties of the Chinese history), and was the term used in Japan and Okinawa for ‘China’. In other words, the original name of karate doesn’t mean ‘empty hand’ but ‘Chinese hand’. Something that definitely wouldn’t have pleased the utterly nationalistic Japan of the Meiji jidai… Which is why Funakoshi felt the need to rename the art when presenting it to Japan (a smart maneuvre, which might have made the difference between triumphal success and a prompt stoning).

But although the Chinese roots of karate styles coming from tode are very old, a few karate styles have much more recent Chinse origins (they are sometimes referred to as ‘kempo-karate’ styles). Shorinji-kempo is one of them (its founder, as the name quite plainly says, developed it straight from Shaolin boxing). Uechi-ryu is another of those: it was developed by its founder from ‘pangai noon’, a southern Chinese style now extinct…
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#326156 - 05/12/07 02:10 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
Great post tashigae. Very concise and informative.

Not sure about Chinese martial arts evolving from the little forest temple, however, as many wars had been fought in China before then. I believe that Shaolin was more of a martial arts university that greatly refined the fighting arts as the temple housed many fugitives, bandits as well as martial arts teachers during some turbulent times.

Quote:

I heard (not first-hand experience, so I might be mistaken) that karate favors advancing the right foot when right-punching and the left foot when left-punching (which I guess is designed to ad some extra hip-torque to generate more power). In Chinese arts, this would be heresy: punching is always done with the hand on the side of the REAR leg (which we straighten and ‘push the ground’ with, hence generating power too.).




This is totally untrue. There is alot of cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts! When I say cross-matching I mean left foot forward, strike with right arm. Different ways to deliver power. Personally I deliver more power (not that it is that great) when I match sides, but I am still developing.

Quote:

These are two very different ways to generate power…


True. There are many different ways of delivering power. In northern Chinese system, there are 8 directions and many different types of jing (power). Thrusting, penetrating, splitting, crushing, lifting, just to name a few. Even 'forward' force has many ways of being delivered.

Quote:

So, while karate definitely takes its roots in gongfu, it nonetheless has some original concepts too and has evolved into something different enough (how different is mostly style-dependant: some karate styles look very Chinese, others hardly look even remotely connected…).




True and very good point. Ironically enough, karate is probably more intact today then Chinese martial arts!

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#326157 - 05/13/07 02:37 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: northstar]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

Not sure about Chinese martial arts evolving from the little forest temple, however, as many wars had been fought in China before then. I believe that Shaolin was more of a martial arts university that greatly refined the fighting arts as the temple housed many fugitives, bandits as well as martial arts teachers during some turbulent times.




Agreed! A common belief is that ALL Chinese martial arts originate from Shaolin, where they would have been introduced by Bodhidarma (Da-Mo in Chinese). Sounds like nonsense to me. Compared to the amazing length of Chinese history, Bodhidarma's coming to Shaolin almost feels like yesterday (my memory's failing me about the exact time... Wasn't it around 800 AD? Or maybe a few centuries before... Ridiculously late anyway compared to China's 5000-year-old civilization). There's little doubt about the tremendous importance of Shaolin's role, but as for it being the ORIGIN of the arts, it's a hard sell.


Quote:

This is totally untrue. There is alot of cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts! When I say cross-matching I mean left foot forward, strike with right arm.




We are not disagreeing, the method you describe is exactly what I was trying to say by "punching [...] with the hand on the side of the REAR leg". Sorry for being unclear, English isn't my mother-tongue and I sometimes come up with erroneous or uselessly intricated ways to express what I have in mind, when a native speaker would immediately find a much more simple wording...

You say "there is a lot of cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts". If my instructor was here, he would push it as far as "there is ONLY cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts". The way I've been taught it, whenever a taolu seems to have a hand strike matching sides with your forward-leg (which I believe to be rather rare, from my experience), the strike, IF it is one indeed, is actually not the main aim of the move, but is intended as a parry / diversion / setup / etc., the strike being only bonus.

Just what I've been told, not advanced enough myself to make any comments of my own on the subject.

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#326158 - 05/16/07 11:18 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
I don't believe this is true. Only cross matching striking? What if your leading side already has a clear shot, why bother to cross match if your lead side is closer and strong enough?

Personally this is how I prefer to fight though (notorious, cross matching left-leg and right-arm and lead/stick/control with my left.

Look at xing yi with its pi chuan, the first 'fist' you learn. Tan tui (10 segments), even in just basic shaolin movements you still practise striking with both sides. Always up to the individual to personalize and prefer though.

Of course, certain styles would have their own preferences. What system do you practise (don't worry, not going to attack you about it!)? I did practise quite a few northern style forms, but now am only breaking down a couple of forms.

For some reason, I also prefer to intercept and grab the face/gouge eyes for the same reason; sticking on and more control.

Regards !

Quote:

..."there is ONLY cross-matching striking going on in Chinese martial arts". The way I've been taught it, whenever a taolu seems to have a hand strike matching sides with your forward-leg (which I believe to be rather rare, from my experience), the strike, IF it is one indeed, is actually not the main aim of the move, but is intended as a parry / diversion / setup / etc., the strike being only bonus.



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#326159 - 05/18/07 04:35 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Uechi-ryu is another of those: it was developed by its founder from ‘pangai noon’, a southern Chinese style now extinct…





"Pangai Noon" was never a style/system. I saw the Chinese characters somewhere (perhaps in an article on Uechi Ryu) and it stands for "pan" = (ban)half; "gai" = (gang)hard; "noon" = (rou)soft. So it simply means half-hard-half-soft ("ban gang rou") or as Miyagi puts it in Japanese, "Goju"

My view is that Uechi Ryu evolved from the Five Ancestors System found in Fujian Province. Anyway it is also possible (in fact highly probable) that the founders of the various Okinawan Te studied more than one Chinese system (or more likely only a part thereof) and just like our latter-day "masters" stitched them together in some kind of order and 'created' or rather 'quilted' a Te.
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#326160 - 05/21/07 11:56 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Thanks for the info! I keep getting amazed at the amount of false information that circulates in the MA community . This story about a ‘pan-gai-noon’ style was told to me during my very brief Uechi-ryu experience, and confirmed by my Encyclopedia of Martial Arts, so I didn’t bother to question it any further, and it looks like I was wrong…

And thanks for the Mandarin translation too: my knowledge of Guangdong-hua / Guamdong-wa is close to zilch, but I love the way it sounds and am always eager to learn the Cantonese pronounciation of any previously learnt Chinese character.
So, never hesitate to get into the linguistic details: I’m loving it!
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#326161 - 05/22/07 02:40 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: northstar]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

What system do you practise (don't worry, not going to attack you about it!)?



Ooops, forgot to answer that.

I don’t practice a defined system yet. The school I attend (‘attended’, actually, for I left it to come to China 4 months ago and, ironically, have been without instruction since then ) emphasizes mostly the basics (stances, footwork, common kicks and hand strikes, balance, strength, flexibility, etc…). As for taolu, the instructor usually switches styles every two months or so (that is, after every year’s first two forms, which get systematically picked among classic Shaolin-quan), as to give his students a chance to try out a variety of systems before choosing one if they wish to do so (believe it or not, he’s a qualified instructor in more than 30 styles!). The students are free to stick to any studied system they find to their liking. So far I’ve had the opportunity to catch a glimpse of Shaolin-quan, qixing-tanglang-quan, bagua-zhang, baji-quan and tongbei-quan (I studied in this school for less than two years).

How about you? What are those northern styles you studied, and which one do your currently studied forms belong to ?
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#326162 - 05/22/07 12:36 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Dang I haven't been to this thread in a while lemme read through all of the new comments

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#326163 - 05/23/07 01:05 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
I've never argued that some karate styles are influenced by Kung fu, I've merely argued against similarities to White crane. Again Neko, I'm not stating that 2 years in study in one form or another and then a lifetime of study doesn't mean that you won't be a hard core martial artist, I'm just stating that you won't be doing Karate or Kung Fu, you'll be doing MA.

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