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#326144 - 04/17/07 07:15 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I'm sorry but uh Karate's Sanchin kata is derived from the Sanchin forms found in Fujianese MA, which include Fujian White Crane.
Sanchin

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#326145 - 04/18/07 01:39 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: IExcalibui2]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Ok, true, though you're talking 1 form developed by a man who never studied white crain (Mijagi had a friend who did though...) + we're also talking a Kata from Goju-Ryu (not sure on that but pretty sure) which shouldn't bear many similiraties to Shorin-ryu anyhow as they were both very early forms of Karate without common ancestery.

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#326146 - 04/18/07 02:19 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
how can the same form be derived without having the same influence? And have the same name for that fact. Whether or not Karate has anymore similarities to Fujian White Crane is a different story, but he asked for origins of Karate and Fujian is one of those places that influenced what was eventually developed as Karate.

I mean can tell you that BJJ came from Judo even though the arts have diverged into 2 separate things today.
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#326147 - 04/18/07 03:27 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: IExcalibui2]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I mean can tell you that BJJ came from Judo even though the arts have diverged into 2 separate things today.




I read somewhere sometime ago that there are similarities between Aikido and Bagua, at least conceptually.

But as for the speculation on Okinawan Te's conceptual origin and the arts like WuZu and white crane from Fukien Province, one can surmise that even in terms of language one can see that the older generation of Okinawans (before 18th century Japanisation) spoke a dialect known as "Hogen" which is exactly what the people of Fukien Province call themselves and their dialect, for 'Fukien' is the mandarin pronunciation of 'Hogen' Ask Leo, he speaks or at least understands Hogen which is spoken by the older generation of Singaporeans, 3 quarters of whom (including my wife) trace their ancestral roots to Fukien Province. I got the feeling that you speak cantonese.

It makes sense because how else could the pioneering Okinawan masters like Miyagi have gone to China, principally to Fukien Province, and be taught anything unless there was some commonality of language, which presumed some commonality of ancestry, to persuade the then xenophobic Chinese to part with anything martially useful to those old Hogen-speaking Okinawans?
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#326148 - 04/18/07 03:31 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: IExcalibui2]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Cool. The lack of similarities to white crane was all i was getting at actually.

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#326149 - 04/18/07 07:18 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

I read somewhere sometime ago that there are similarities between Aikido and Bagua, at least conceptually.




From what I have heard, Usheiba went to China prior to developing Aikido and learned Bagua. The throws in Aikido come from Cheng style Baguazhang.
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#326150 - 04/18/07 07:53 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Fisherman]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Ah, so that's why they wear those long black skirts, to hide the Bagua footwork perhaps?

Yes, I've learned one particular Bagua footwork which (almost magically) can get you positioned at the back of your opponent before he knew what was happening, which I understand was one of Ueshiba's trademark move.
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#326151 - 05/08/07 12:25 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: JimmySmith]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jimmy, IExcalibui2 and Others that agree are right, what you maybe thinking of is Northern white Crane there are plenty of Southern crane movement in Goju as it is in Shorin-ryu. Remember the Chinto kata (Which translates Crane standing rock) there is lots of subtle crane movements in Karate.

Curly I think Shaolin (5 animal system) and Hung-gar (Tiger Crane) would be a good kuen to train being that you have a Shorin-ryu base.

I've studied several Gung-fu system and was amazed at the similarity in the Karate and Gung-fu. In Gung-fu the moves have to defined then you see how they compare to Karate. Alot of the similar moves are taught camoflauged unless in the simple Gung-fu arts like Wing-chun. Once you know what they are are where to look the similarity are many. One of the difference in Goju (and I'll add Kempo/Kenpo) it never left its connection to Tang. Whereas Shotokan or some of Shorin-ryu speak of not seeing any connection accept through history or kata.

My real base is Goju and we start teaching crane movement at 7th or 8th kyu and throughout Mastering Goju.


Edited by Neko456 (05/08/07 12:30 PM)
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#326152 - 05/08/07 11:47 PM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Curly]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

kung fu suposedly had its roots in Kalaripayat (yep, the indian's taught the chinese who taught the japanese)



Chinese fighting styles are indeed believed to have evolved from Indian martial arts (both Bodhiruchi – founder of the Shaolin temple – and Bodhidarma – who supposedly introduced martial arts in there – were Indian, by the way). However, I believe kalaripayat to be posterior to the birth of Chinese so-called 'gongfu' (not sure of that one, I might be mistaken). The source would more likely be vajramukti, a much more ancient Indian martial art which I believe to be mostly lost nowadays.

Quote:

Feel free to smack me down here, but I once read that Shorin was the Japanese term for Shaolin. That true??



Mandarin 'shao' (Cantonese 'siu', Japanese 'sho') = 'few', 'little' (sometimes 'young')
Mandarin 'lin' (Cantonese 'lam', Japanese 'rin') = 'forest'.
'Shorinji kenpo' is the Japanese pronounciation for the characters 'Shaolin-si quanfa' (boxing of the Shaolin temple).

Quote:

"asking the right question can open many doors".... Come on man, we're not the Free Masons



Ah, but historically speaking, the development of the Chinese martial arts owes a lot to secret societies…

Quote:

I've never seen Karate employ anythingthing close to white crane dude



I’m far from being an expert in karate knowledge, but I believe there is a karate kata called 'hakutsuruken'. This name is but the Japanese pronounciation of the Chinese characters for 'baihe quan' (Cantonese 'bak-hok kuen'), which translates in English as white (Mabdarin 'bai', Cantonese 'bak', Japanese 'haku') crane (Mandarin 'he', Cantonese 'hok', Japanese 'tsuru') boxing (Mandarin 'quan', Cantonese 'kuen', Japanese 'ken')...

(note that I translated quan / kuen / ken as 'boxing'. It actually means 'fist', but in those cases it is a metonymy for 'quan-fa' / 'kuen-po' / 'kenpo', which means 'fist technique' and can more or less be translated as 'boxing'.)

Quote:

'Fukien' is the mandarin pronunciation of 'Hogen'



Actually I think 'Fukien' is the local pronounciation, since the Mandarin pronounciation would be 'Fujian'. But I'm sure it's merely a moment’s inattention on your part, since I had the chance in the past to see that your Chinese is miles better than my own...


--------
I heard (not first-hand experience, so I might be mistaken) that karate favors advancing the right foot when right-punching and the left foot when left-punching (which I guess is designed to ad some extra hip-torque to generate more power). In Chinese arts, this would be heresy: punching is always done with the hand on the side of the REAR leg (which we straighten and ‘push the ground’ with, hence generating power too.). These are two very different ways to generate power… So, while karate definitely takes its roots in gongfu, it nonetheless has some original concepts too and has evolved into something different enough (how different is mostly style-dependant: some karate styles look very Chinese, others hardly look even remotely connected…).
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#326153 - 05/09/07 04:08 AM Re: Just curious about Kung fu [Re: Tashigae]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
I'm still stikin with my statement Karate guys may have initially studied kung fu or combined their traditional Okinawa MA with what they learnt but damn it I'm puttin the foot down. If Karate guys can say that the servicemen that returned from Japan after only two years study or so aren't teaching Karate, I can say that a few measly Kata, from some old guys prior to the war (not to mention what was lost due to Karate going underground and all illegal etc), who only studied for a brief time or were influenced by white crane and we're only yelling impotently about white crane not other styles of kung fu, *where was i?* does not actually resemble white crane

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