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#325064 - 02/26/07 10:03 PM Lets go technical - Part 4
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Part 4 ďLimb DestructionsĒ

I was asked to do this piece about destructions, which I readily accepted because Iíve used them for quite some time as a part of my training. I use them because they work quite well.

Destructions (also known as ďguntingĒ and ďspikingĒ) are simply methods of injuring your opponents attacking limbs as they are hurling toward your head and body. Essentially what you do is, place a larger or harder weapon on the incoming path of your opponentís weapon. An example might be, as my opponent attempts to strike me on the nose with his fist, I raise my elbow in front of my nose at the right moment, causing his fist to slam into the tip of my elbow, hurting him and leaving me virtually unscathed. It works well enough when backed with a game based on solid fundamentals.

And as I mentioned, spikes work quite well. In fact, they work well enough to be felt through 16oz boxing gloves. The harder your opponent hits, the worse it hurts.

Here are a couple of references to check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panantukan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH-0yOFbURs


There are a variety of ways to hit guntings, but I use only a few. Many methods donít come out well when the energy is real and alive.

Lets get the conversation started and Iíll be back on to add a bit more on this tomorrow.


-John

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#325065 - 02/26/07 11:24 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Thanks for posting this one

I was watching the video and saw the elbow-to-fist destruction. It seems to me to be a primarily a long-range defense, but then again, I do see how to make it a short range defense against uppercuts. This really sparked some ideas into my head.

Are there any spikes for kicks? (I know one, that kneeing the thigh as the kick comes in )

Quote:

Many methods donít come out well when the energy is real and alive.


Which one works the most for you in alive sparring?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#325066 - 02/27/07 05:30 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I've got a question John. The destructions are against your opponent's own offensive weapons correct? So are they effective in a quick self defense encounter or are they more applicable to a longer confrontation, say in the ring or cage. I just wondered, because some of those techniques seemed to attack the limb, rather than what I would do, which would be to go straight to the opponent's head and hit that. I liked the idea of elbowing the fist, however, the bicep hit seemed to be a weak choice. I would have preferred to go for something a touch more painful than that- head, body, groin etc.

One thing that struck me, was the similarities between this idea, and that of traditional hard styles of karate and TKD. In TKD, many of the blocks are not merely to stop getting hit, but to actively damage the opponent's limb. That is why at my ITF club we use the edge of the forearm to block, whereas when I was visiting Shoshikan's club, they used the flat of the back of the forearm. I can see the differences as well. You clearly do see the "spike" as an addition to a strong defense manifested in a tight guard, whereas these traditional TKD blocks are the defense.

Personally, I've not yet built enough skill with my guard to do much active blocking or parrying, let alone these destructions. Hopefully as I improve such techniques will become more of an option.

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#325067 - 02/27/07 06:40 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Quote:

I've got a question John. The destructions are against your opponent's own offensive weapons correct? So are they effective in a quick self defense encounter or are they more applicable to a longer confrontation, say in the ring or cage.





First, a destruction is more of a defensive tool than an offensive one. Like I alluded to, I use destructions differently than do many FMA guys. They are part of my defensive stand-up game and I use them when entering into the clinch.

In my opinion, a spike can be used in either a sport situation or a street situation. While itís nice to think that we can always be on the offensive in defensive situations, this isnít always the case. There are times when youíre swung on. And while itís preferable to establish forward pressure in those situations, much depends on your opponent.

In short, destructions can be used in either circumstance. For me, they would definitely be a factor as I am entering into close range. Itís my opinion that if youíre going to fight someone, get in close and never allow things to become an ďexchangeĒ. Weíre just not always afforded that luxury.


Quote:


I just wondered, because some of those techniques seemed to attack the limb, rather than what I would do, which would be to go straight to the opponent's head and hit that. I liked the idea of elbowing the fist, however, the bicep hit seemed to be a weak choice. I would have preferred to go for something a touch more painful than that- head, body, groin etc.





I dropped hitting the bicep and all of that out of my game about 12 years ago. No point hitting the bicep when you can counter punch the head IMO. The elbow destruction (spike) is about the only one I use. But it works well enough to where you donít miss a thing by the exclusion of the others. And thatís should be just a part of your shell defensive cover.

Again, I view destructions differently than the more traditional Filipino martial artist might.


Quote:


One thing that struck me, was the similarities between this idea, and that of traditional hard styles of karate and TKD. In TKD, many of the blocks are not merely to stop getting hit, but to actively damage the opponent's limb.

That is why at my ITF club we use the edge of the forearm to block, whereas when I was visiting Shoshikan's club, they used the flat of the back of the forearm. I can see the differences as well. You clearly do see the "spike" as an addition to a strong defense manifested in a tight guard, whereas these traditional TKD blocks are the defense.

Personally, I've not yet built enough skill with my guard to do much active blocking or parrying, let alone these destructions. Hopefully as I improve such techniques will become more of an option.





Right. Iíve ALWAYS been told that (and shown that -- and those can definitely get your attention). My problem with many of the more traditional blocks is that they take your elbow away from your body/center. There are other things that will work equally well without leaving one so exposed.


-John

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#325068 - 02/27/07 07:58 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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I like the elbow spikes. Those are feasible for me, as they are very similar to the elbow blocks/parries that I picked up from wing chun.

John, do you find yourself applying them like on the video, or more from a passive "helmet" position? In other words, not guiding the strike to the elbow, but going to the "helmet", and the strike hits your elbow there?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#325069 - 02/28/07 08:55 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Matt -

Truthfully I didn't see much of the video I posted so I can't fully comment on it. I linked to that merely as a reference source. But yes you are essentially right about my use of spikes and the helmet.

I use spikes aggressively and passively depending. Much of that depends on the distance I am from my opponent. However I never really "guide" the strike to the elbow point as I never really have to. If I line up so the distance is just outside of punching range, I KNOW generally that my opponent's strikes will be straight punches right down the pike. If I keep my hands high enough, a little timing (from lots of practice) will find his shots landing straight on my elbow. Keeping the proper distance is key here.


Here's a great example of EXACTLY how I use destructions to close the distance (the FIRST part of the video).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9t56owrkHE

I've been using this method for the better part of ten years. Obviously you don't have to actually close the distance as you can hit the spike the same exact way and stay out in long range.

This defeats the purpose in my opinion however as I believe the best use of destructions is to cause pain on the entry. That I believe was the reason they were used in Silat to begin with.


-John

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#325070 - 02/28/07 10:31 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Good stuff John. I was interested in a couple things about training the spikes... -Do you run into (no pun) problems of safety and how do you get around injury when going faster speeds than the video showed?
- Do you also work on spikes as a means to guard off someone closing the distance on you? If so, which ways have you found to be better effect - straight up like a rising elbow or horizontal like the punch spikes? we got the rising elbow, but the horizontal way I find too slow and not as well structured. plus with the vertical, your hand is right there for the head.

so the mini-drill would be: they are closing distance - you do a vertical rising elbow spike, then right into a head clinch....and take it from there.

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#325071 - 02/28/07 11:06 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Good stuff John. I was interested in a couple things about training the spikes... -Do you run into (no pun) problems of safety and how do you get around injury when going faster speeds than the video showed?





Iíve felt the effect of spikes through 16oz gloves and they hurt like a bitch. So safety is a factor. When weíre working with more full speed punching, you can approach it in on of two ways; either donít spike during such training or, have the guys keep their hands open inside of their gloves. This prevents them from hitting harder thus helping them to avoid injury. Thatís a good way to train anyway (open hands) when in the gym as you can go very fast without worry of injury or brain damage, lol.



Quote:


- Do you also work on spikes as a means to guard off someone closing the distance on you?





No really. I welcome someone attempting to close the distance in most cases. Thatís where I want the fight.

In more of a self-defense situation, Iím running when possible (and thus INCREASING the distance, not closing, lol). If I canít run, Iím probably already in the clinch thus itís a moot point.


Quote:


If so, which ways have you found to be better effect - straight up like a rising elbow or horizontal like the punch spikes? we got the rising elbow, but the horizontal way I find too slow and not as well structured. plus with the vertical, your hand is right there for the head.




I prefer the vertical elbow. With that you have an instant collar tie. Thatís much better but I do practice both because I have a sneaky jab from that horizontal elbow that I like to throw.

Quote:


so the mini-drill would be: they are closing distance - you do a vertical rising elbow spike, then right into a head clinch....and take it from there.





If theyíre closing the distance, itís better to cover and meet them halfway, imo. You can ďsteal their timeĒ and also rob the focus of their offense that way.


More questions please!


-John

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#325072 - 02/28/07 11:42 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'more questions' ?? I haven't read someone write that in a while! aren't you afraid of being veiwed as 'too intellectual' ? lol

ok, thanks for the tips (again, no pun).

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#325073 - 03/01/07 10:24 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Spikes for kicks? Are there any? How you do them?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#325074 - 03/01/07 10:41 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Here's a great example of EXACTLY how I use destructions to close the distance (the FIRST part of the video).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9t56owrkHE





Thanks for the video, John. That's exactly what I was looking for. Do you bother with leg destructions? Seems like it would make more sense to go for a takedown if you're not going to evade.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#325075 - 03/02/07 05:06 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Taison]
Xibalba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
Cool stuff, John! Thanks for sharing your insight.

As far as spikes for kicks, it is always uber-painful for the kicker to have one's kick blocked with a pointy elbow - esp if said kicker is kicking with the foot/instep and not the shin. I have had a kick "spiked" in such a manner on more than one occasion, and sometimes it has put an end to my match. This works best with kicks to the body/lower torso - just hold your elbows in tight and make sure one is in the way of a foot.

The caveat is, however, that this has happened when training barefoot, wearing at most shin and instep pads. Footwear may add an element of imperviousness to this, depending on the shoe. A tennis shoe kicker may still end up with some nasty bruises, but a workboot kicker may have nothing to worry about.

Just my 0.02.

Peace,
Mike

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#325076 - 03/02/07 06:33 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Double post deleted by MattJ


Edited by MattJ (03/02/07 10:46 AM)

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#325077 - 03/02/07 06:43 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina

Quote:


Do you bother with leg destructions?





Did you mean, destuctions using my legs or destructions against/targeting the legs?



I'll answer that question to say that I don't do either. I treat a kicker with strategy (such as, being in his shirt essentially).

If a person is attempting to kick, they're easier to deal with by distancing than by blocking/parrying and spiking IMO.

I don't use knee destructions because you can injure the patella. That's just not worth the risk.


Quote:


Seems like it would make more sense to go for a takedown if you're not going to evade.




True, and another option would be to go in and establish position, firing knees and really just pummeling people with uppercuts and overhands using collar ties and underhooks.

Thatís hard to see in MMA anymore because just about everyone can wrestle. If you canít wrestle in this day and age, you donít belong in the ring or cage really because youíre minus a HUGE skillset.

Against ďJoe AverageĒ, a good Greco guy can make a fight look like magic, just the way the Gracieís did early on. That is of course bearing in mind that he is somewhat cognizant of fighting (awareness of things outside the rules structure of his sport Ė of course even without being so aware, the difference in skill is usually quite disproportionate and is usually a moot point)


-John

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#325078 - 03/02/07 05:31 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Taison]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Quote:

Spikes for kicks? Are there any? How you do them?

-Taison out



I've found that kicks to the body can often be spiked simply by keeping a tight guard (of course this was WTF TKD so leg kicks were not a concern). I remember a conversation once:
Them- "You shouldn't keep a tight guard like that you'll hurt your opponent."
Me- "They're trying to kick me, wouldn't I want to hurt them?"

-Umbra

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#325079 - 03/02/07 09:33 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Umbra_777]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
I often kick to the body and accidentally hit elbows sometimes, its very painful and sometimes makes you want to stop. I think if someone used this tactic to their advantage, they would be very dangerous.
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Cut me Mick!

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#325080 - 03/02/07 09:57 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Ayub]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I often kick to the body and accidentally hit elbows sometimes, its very painful and sometimes makes you want to stop.





That's basically the idea. You want to punish your opponent at every turn. Every time he tries to hit you, he ends up hurting as a result. That's a pretty good deal in my opinion.


-John

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#325081 - 03/03/07 12:31 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
So far I've only got two spike techniques for kicks;

When I do my MT block, I'll angle my elbow out diagonally to meet their shin. Sometimes it hurts, but the effect it gets on them is much greater. The risk is by bending it diagonally, I'll get hit in the face sometimes, but oh well.

The second is when they kick, I'll intercept into their kick as well as kneeing them right in the thigh. Sometimes it doesn't happen on precise timing and I end up kneeing them in the shin, which of course hurts more. It's better to intercept late than early imo.

I've been experimenting with the elbow spikes and to be honest, they're great. John, thanks for making me stronger muhaha. Just need to get the timing down and then I'll destroy fists like paper.

Quote:

You want to punish your opponent at every turn. Every time he tries to hit you, he ends up hurting as a result. That's a pretty good deal in my opinion.



Sounds like a deal from "duty-free". Discount anyone?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#325082 - 03/17/07 11:17 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


I've been experimenting with the elbow spikes and to be honest, they're great. John, thanks for making me stronger muhaha. Just need to get the timing down and then I'll destroy fists like paper.





That's the idea bro. Timing is the key and the training is pretty easy to do safely. In fact, ALL aspects of training can be done safely. There are no reasons for injuries. They aren't just your fault, injuries are the entire training teams fault. When drilling, I work spikes into my standard defensive drills. One such drill is just an offense-defense drill. This is where one side throws punches and the other can only defend. This is a great time to work every aspect of defense, including spikes.

Corner drills are a great way of doing this as well. Then start adding them into your counter-punching sets and you're good to go.


-John

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#325083 - 03/18/07 01:43 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
In TKD matches i like to block with my elbows against roundhouse kicks. after feeling a few of those they usually start to hesitate to attack me. It isn't illegal either because it looks like a forearm block just your arm is slightly bent.

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#325084 - 03/18/07 11:46 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
Jer_sm Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/07
Posts: 158
Loc: Canada, new-bruncswick
haha, thats a good skill to develope.

must be pretty hard to block punches with your elbow.
_________________________
Heart, Courage, Intensity. The desire to win.

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#325085 - 03/18/07 11:52 AM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Jer_sm]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Not really after a few years of sparring, it's kind of natural. All you need to do is to work on timing, and practice it like a religion.

But other than that, it's not too hard.

-Taison out


Edited by Taison (03/18/07 11:53 AM)
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#325086 - 03/18/07 12:05 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Taison]
Jer_sm Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/07
Posts: 158
Loc: Canada, new-bruncswick
would this be a legit move in boxing to block like the haymakers?

i mean you can pretty much block a punch anyway you want right?
_________________________
Heart, Courage, Intensity. The desire to win.

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#325087 - 03/18/07 12:10 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Jer_sm]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Haymakers are SO easy to evade, it's pointless to spike them.

But if I was to spike, it's usually the cross or the lead straight. I'm still finding jabs to be hard to spike, but it's just me not getting the rhytm right.

In boxing, it's not legal to use elbows against punch, but sometimes 'accidents' occur.

In MT, it's perfectly legal.

-Taison err.. Grumpy out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#325088 - 03/18/07 12:10 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Jer_sm]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

would this be a legit move in boxing to block like the haymakers?

i mean you can pretty much block a punch anyway you want right?






Not with the elbow. That would mean opening up more because you'd have aim the elbow out farther away from the body. That's never a good thing imo.


-John

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#325089 - 03/18/07 12:13 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: JKogas]
Jer_sm Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/07
Posts: 158
Loc: Canada, new-bruncswick
still would be fun to spike someones huge haymaker .

i think taison needs a couple rounds on the heavy bag ;P.
_________________________
Heart, Courage, Intensity. The desire to win.

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#325090 - 03/18/07 12:23 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Jer_sm]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

I think taison needs a couple rounds on the heavy bag ;P.




I think I have to hit a living being. Bags don't hit back. Well actually they do, because if you don't hit with enough force to push through the bag, the force that you put into the bag will bounce back into you which, can hurt or injure you.

Anyway, sorry if I'm a bit grumpy, but it's one of my mood swings right now.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#325091 - 03/18/07 01:12 PM Re: Lets go technical - Part 4 [Re: Taison]
Jer_sm Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/07
Posts: 158
Loc: Canada, new-bruncswick
i'll fight ya >=D

well.. i can try
_________________________
Heart, Courage, Intensity. The desire to win.

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