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#324591 - 03/03/07 12:07 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Quote:

some people on this forum believe that sparring in the gym/dojo is the equivalent or same is if fight on the street.








Explain the differences and how such differences affect hand/arm placement.






I havenít read the entire thread so I donít know the first posterís position, but if you donít mine, Iíd like to jump in with my two cents.

From my experience (yours might be different) parrying works better in the gym than on the street (the gloves make the difference). So for me dropping parrying as a defensive technique in favor of other defensive techniques caused my hand placement to change naturally (since my arms were being used differently now).

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#324592 - 03/03/07 12:31 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: ExCon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by ExCon -

Quote:

From my experience (yours might be different) parrying works better in the gym than on the street (the gloves make the difference).




My experience is different. I have trained sparring without gloves a bit, and gloves do not make a big difference - if anything, gloves make it HARDER to parry (since it is more difficult to accurately judge when first contact is being made with gloves).
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#324593 - 03/03/07 01:23 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: MattJ]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

My experience is different. I have trained sparring without gloves a bit,




Iíve always sparred with gloves on. Iíve found that most people arenít interested in sparring without gloves.

On the other hand Iíve found parrying in a street fight can sometimes result in damaged hands (fists braking/spraining fingers, etc.) Iíve never heard of this happening while sparring with gloves on.

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#324594 - 03/03/07 01:32 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: ExCon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Iíve always sparred with gloves on. Iíve found that most people arenít interested in sparring without gloves.




So have I.

Quote:

On the other hand Iíve found parrying in a street fight can sometimes result in damaged hands (fists braking/spraining fingers, etc.) Iíve never heard of this happening while sparring with gloves on.




Hmmm..... are you talking about blocking (hard) or parrying (soft)? Hard to see how you could hurt your hand in parrying. I very rarely use blocks for the reason that you mentioned - parries are much safer.

Block = takes incoming strike at a perpendicuar angle with force

Parry = takes incoming strike at a more parallel angle with little force
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#324595 - 03/03/07 01:43 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


From my experience (yours might be different) parrying works better in the gym than on the street (the gloves make the difference).





It's merely an issue of timing.


Quote:

Iíve always sparred with gloves on. Iíve found that most people arenít interested in sparring without gloves.





Have you tried the smaller MMA gloves? They are the cross between bare knuckle and boxing gloves. Virtually ALL techniques you would use when bareknuckle are available when wearing MMA gloves and you aren't limited to the extent you are when wearing boxing gloves.

Thus you CAN practice parrying. It's not that difficult to do. Keeping the proper distance is the main thing (being just outside of range). I find that parrying is pretty easy when you do that (and I've gone from bareknuckle, to MMA gloves to boxing gloves). The differences aren't that great and as Matt mentioned, it can actually be easier when you have full use of the hand.


Quote:


On the other hand Iíve found parrying in a street fight can sometimes result in damaged hands (fists braking/spraining fingers, etc.) Iíve never heard of this happening while sparring with gloves on.





Keeping the fingers bent and the hand slightly cupped will go a long way to prevent this.


-John

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#324596 - 03/03/07 03:42 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:


Hmmm..... are you talking about blocking (hard) or parrying (soft)? Hard to see how you could hurt your hand in parrying. I very rarely use blocks for the reason that you mentioned - parries are much safer.

Block = takes incoming strike at a perpendicuar angle with force

Parry = takes incoming strike at a more parallel angle with little force




Hi MattJ

Iím definitely talking about parrying. The thing is ďstreet fightingĒ is sloppier than sparring is and some of my parries become unintentional blocks.




Quote:

Have you tried the smaller MMA gloves?



Since MMA gloves wonít be available to me in a self defense situation and Iím most interested in SD I prefer to train without them.



Quote:


It's merely an issue of timing.




I know



Quote:

Keeping the fingers bent and the hand slightly cupped will go a long way to prevent this.




I know

Could be a case of me just sucking at parrying, well like Bruce Lee Iíve discarded what doesnít work for me and kept what has. I find footwork and head movement work much better for me .

If parrying works for you stick with it!

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#324597 - 08/15/07 11:15 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: Ed_Morris]
falconhunter2020 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 16
I keep my lead hand up in a fist with my forearm facing out, fist at the bridge of my nose. I keep my rear hand in a fist at my solar plexus. I generally stand in a T stance, looking over my lead shoulder.

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#324598 - 03/31/08 12:53 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: MattJ]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
If, half-way to the target, my strike looks like it won't get in, THEN and only then is it a fake.
_________________________

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#324599 - 03/31/08 01:13 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Initaly its the open hand fence trying to talk him down.
When that doesn't work and I can't pre-empt him its high guard with my mod sanchin stance protecting my lower body lower from strikes countered by tai-sabaki, footwork and knee or foot jams.

I try bob, weave and strike in between unless they are runners which in that case I attack there lower body with sweeps/kicks imbalancing and striking high to low with my hands, elbows or whatevers open.

In close my goal is to slip behind them and dump them on their head and pound them. If that doesn't work its just control with pushes and pulls and make them submit with rapid heavy strikes or KO them with whatever it takes. Defense/hand position is only apart of offense they are not separate they are one.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#324600 - 03/31/08 02:50 PM Re: Tech thread part 2 - hand position [Re: JKogas]
Big_Rob Offline
this may sting a bit

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 140
Loc: NY
Quote:

Quote:

I Know I'm a little late on posting this,However some people on this forum believe that sparring in the gym/dojo is the equivalent or same is if fight on the street.







To whom would you be referring?


Explain the differences and how such differences affect hand/arm placement.



-John




I'm responding to the question "Whats the difference between a street fight and sparring in reference to hand position." Some of the response may seem off topic, this is because the post is taken from an article I wrote for my website.

Sport Vs. Street

The major difference is Awareness, consent and preparation. During a street encounter you do not have access to these things in the same way you do in a sportive event. An important thing to understand is that awareness, consent and preparation go hand in hand and overlap in many areas. When entering a sporting event you are aware of your attacker and know that there exists only ď1Ē attacker which causes critical focus, during critical focus you see nothing but your opponent. In the street losing your awareness of others and your surroundings could be life threatening. You also know when the bell rings or the ref says go you are going to attack. You know your attackers goals and desires, you know what he wants and what he is going to do to get it. You also know that when the bell rings at the end of the round you can go back to your corner.
You assume that when you tap or get knocked out the ref will come over and stop the fight. You assume that your opponentís corner men and the audience are not going to jump in while your back is turned. You are also aware that next week your opponent and his friends will not jump you in the parking lot while you are leaving the office to go home for the day. You are also aware that there will be no weapons involved. When your opponent attacks he knows that itís acceptable and you know itís acceptable to fight back and you are aware of the consequences of doing so. You also assume that he will not bite you, poke you in the eye, rip out throat, tear of an ear, break your fingers, hold you down and rape you afterwards, tie you up and torture you and after heís done with you steal you wallet and find your family and torture them.
With a sportive event you have the opportunity to prepare for the event, you have met your opponent and you know the rules and regulations involved in the event. During a sportive event you may experience an adrenal dump but not to the same degree you will experience during a violent street attack. Most times you experience more adrenalin release during public speaking then during a sporting event. The A-dump + fear + exertion = accelerated acidic lactation. So for the power lifters out there who think that "A street fight last only a few seconds" Your heart rate might be close to max and you muscles maybe out of Oxygen and fatigued due to lactic acidosis even before you throw the first shot due to anxiety, fear, attempted escape, ect.
You may finish the fight feeling close to dead then have to escape out of the area dragging a friend to the nearest phone booth, bathroom or hospital while you hold closed a knife wound. This is not as glamorous as shaking your sparring partners hand and going to your gym bag for you extra large bottled spring water or going to the post fight press conference with your entourage. The good thing about understanding these concepts is that you can use them to your advantage during a conflict.

Understanding Stress

Stress can effect people in a variety of ways and for a Varity of reasons, some people experience stress at work, some feel stress when driving a car, some people feel stress watching a scary movie. The stress we are dealing with during a confrontation is what most people call ďFight or Flight SyndromeĒ. This is when the body involuntarily releases stress hormones which cause the adrenal glands to secrete hormone, in some people it can be a slow release causing them to get nervous and shaky and in others it can be a huge dump causing them to freeze and lose cognitive ability.
The purpose of an adrenaline dump is to turbo charge your body making you stronger and faster then you would normally be, but there are side effects. During the adrenaline release phase many things are affected, most noted are Vision, Cognitive processing and complex motor skills. According to police psychologist Alexis Artwohl, Ph.D. The following may occur during adrenaline stress syndrome.

Tunnel vision Ė 70% of your peripheral vision vanished and you experience critical focus on the perceived threat

Diminished auditory perception - sounds seem muffled or non existent

Automatic pilot Ė Your body response to threats automatically via the reptilian brain

Heightened Visual clarity Ė You were capable of seeing things or details that you normally would not be able to see or notice

Time Distortion Ė things seem to move slowly yet the incident seemed to happen so fast.

Intrusive distracting thoughts Ė thoughts not directly related to the current event entering your mind for no apparent reason

Temporary paralysis Ė freezing from fear


Pre-Contact
Often misunderstood and ignored, this is the most important aspect of the conflict. Most conflicts start 20 minutes before the first punch is thrown fro example you walk into a bar and a man stares at you from across the bar. You look back and give him a nasty look, you have just escalated the situation by disrespecting your attacker and attacking his ego within 20 minutes you will be confronted and attacked.
A similar situation might be you walk into a bar and a man stares at you from across the bar. You look back and give him a vulnerable look, you have just escalated the situation you gave your opponent the green light to abuse you and 20 minutes from now will be confronted.
Understanding the pre-contact phase will cause you to address the above situation differently. Now you walk into a bar and a man stares at you from across the bar. You look back and take notice of him but turn away with out looking weak and with out looking confrontational, you have just taken the first step towards de-escalating the situation and 20 minutes from now you will be prepared for a confrontation should it occur, however your new attacker will not be prepared for you as he now has no ability to judge you, typically resulting in him looking for a new target he is more comfortable with. If your opponent confronts you and decides to speak with you this means a few things. The aggressor has an actually issue to resolve, he is not ready to fight and needs to work himself up or he is attempting to distract you and facilitate an ambush.. When you are confronted and dealing with your opponent verbally you must listen to him and assume what he is saying is true. Then attempt to find out how it is possible that it is true. By doing this you can communicate on his terms and have a greater chance of de-escalating the situation. If the attacker wants something you must determine exactly what that want is, you should ask him question, keeping his mind engaged will prevent him from striking. Once you have determined what your attacker wants you must make an effort to give it to him. If you decide you cannot or chose not to give him what he wants then you will verbally dangle his wants in his face till you can find a reasonable way out of the situation. There will be times where you can become demonstrative and attempt to scare your opponent or make them feel like it is not worth the struggle take the confrontation to the physical level. If you decide to act demonstrative you should always give your opponent a way out of the situation while saving face. If not his/her ego will kick in forcing them to follow through. If the situation has reached a point where your opponent will not respond positively to you confronting him then you must assume a submissive role. During the submissive role you must never threaten or challenge your opponent. The purpose of utilizing a submissive/passive attitude is the element of surprise. When your opponent feels you are vulnerable he will not be ready for you to attack him. He will stay loose and open enabling you to more easily catch him off guard. This also applies in multiple attacker situations. Even after attacking the first opponent you can again become submissive and draw in any other attackers.

When using a passive/negotiation stance you will want to mirror your opponents hand position while not looking threatening. Similarly you will want to maintain natural movements with your hands, not looking stiff or combative. Your goal is to protect your centerline while maintaining a position that facilitates interception of your opponentís energy which will typically be a result of your natural reflexive response.

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