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#323067 - 02/19/07 09:40 PM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: eyrie]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Can you describe what kokyu ho is.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#323068 - 02/19/07 10:41 PM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: Fisherman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'll go u one better... here's a pic form Karl Friday's book.
http://neijia.com/KokyuHo.jpg

Also variously called reiki-no-ho and more accurately kokyu-tanden-ho.

Basically, the idea is to use your dantien/tanden to come under the person's power. Essentially, the same idea with all internal skills... fang sung, use the dantien, use the ground, use the mind to will the force (yes, Luke, use the Force), use the breath to augment etc. etc. etc.

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#323069 - 02/20/07 03:42 PM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: eyrie]
Lucid Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 213
Loc: TwinCities, MN, U.S.
^ I call that a seated powerclean Okay, that's a little different...

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#323070 - 02/21/07 07:46 AM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
or is that more an exercise of leveraging with a cooperating partner who maintains a wrist-grab in order to complete the waza? kidding

there's a simplier and less etherial way of thinking about kokyu-ho that spans breathing principles from all fighting Arts: inhale when receiving momentum, exhale when transmitting it.

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#323071 - 02/21/07 09:13 AM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: eyrie]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Thanks for the link.
So would you say that this is using your center of gravity to get under the persons base of power and break their root?
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#323072 - 02/21/07 06:27 PM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ed,

Synchronizing the breath cycle with the movement has little to do with it. You can be holding your breath and still make it work.

Chris,

Think of it this way.... the triangular base of the seated posture provides 3 points (knees and feet) and 2 edges (shins) of contact with the ground. Force acting on the structure is directed to the ground and bounced back - internally - thru your structure into their structure. Changing the vector of the GRF is what causes the other person to uproot...all by themselves.

So the harder they push, the more they uproot themselves - depending on how well you can hold your structure and redirect the GRF thru the holes in their structure.

So, no, Ed, you don't need a cooperative uke to do this, although having one in the early learning stages helps.... simply because the opposite is also true. Even if I as uke am grabbing, if I can find a path vector under your power to your "holes", I can easily uproot you.

Sometimes, there is a pin/hold down at the end when you uproot the other person.... if you lose the connection with the ground whilst pinning, or cannot maintain your structure and the ground path, the person being pinned on the ground can also uproot you - if they know how.

Does that make sense?

So what does this have to do with qi/ki? I'll let you guys figure that one out...

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#323073 - 02/21/07 09:08 PM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

the triangular base of the seated posture provides 3 points (knees and feet) and 2 edges (shins) of contact with the ground. Force acting on the structure is directed to the ground and bounced back - internally - thru your structure into their structure. Changing the vector of the GRF is what causes the other person to uproot...all by themselves.



ie. 'leveraging'.

if someone can hold their breath and do this as you say - then an equal argument is saying someone can do this technique without concepts such as 'ki'....but if it's conveinent to do so, why not.

receive/inhale/float - whatever term you like for softening or redirecting the attackers incoming momentum (or vectors). transmit/exhale/sink - or whichever term for projecting your momentum or vectors. Both using angles, timing, 'loose' structure, and a host of subtlties that are impossible to get with words and only can be understood by feel. all of those things aren't separate.


Ki is the balanced manipulation of momentum and force vectors....one part of doing that is with breathing - along with a thousand other things that don't amount to much just reading about it.

but knowing me, I probably have it all wrong - so it's better to stick to what each of our sensei teaches.

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#323074 - 02/21/07 10:28 PM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

ie. 'leveraging'.




Oh, I get it... you mean 'leveraging' as in borrowing 'energy' as leverage, rather than in the sense of fulcrums and levers...

Quote:

if someone can hold their breath and do this as you say - then an equal argument is saying someone can do this technique without concepts such as 'ki'....but if it's conveinent to do so, why not.




I prefer the Force(TM) myself... but yeah... Luke... woteva

Quote:

receive/inhale/float - whatever term you like for softening or redirecting the attackers incoming momentum (or vectors). transmit/exhale/sink - or whichever term for projecting your momentum or vectors. Both using angles, timing, 'loose' structure, and a host of subtlties that are impossible to get with words and only can be understood by feel. all of those things aren't separate.




All of which are additive and adjuncts... to the basic mechanics... see Lane's post and Grady's post. And yes, you have to FEEL it... understanding what you feel is an entirely different matter though...

Quote:

Ki is the balanced manipulation of momentum and force vectors....one part of doing that is with breathing - along with a thousand other things that don't amount to much just reading about it.




One reason I don't like using the word qi/ki is because it is too nebulous and broad as a descriptive term for what we're talking about. "Energetics" might be a closer term, but again, it's too nebulous for me. Force - not THE Force(TM) - and vectors OTOH, is far more concrete... to get your head around the basic idea.

Bottom line, the basic principles are the same. The variations are simply a "preferred" way to do it... if you like.

So, yeah... just keep doing what your sensei says.... hence my initial response... ask your sensei.

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#323075 - 02/22/07 09:41 AM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
If it's not too much of a derail, I found this video pretty interesting (the top/down camera shots of body movement):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y8XMWG4Leo

Shimada sensei states that "Ritsuzen (standing meditation) is 80% on the inside and 20% on the outside."

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#323076 - 02/22/07 06:38 PM Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I dunno harlan.... I feel Shimada is... TOO "external". For comparison, have a look at this video and tell me what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&mode=related&search=

And while you're at it, you might want to casually ask your teacher about Toumei na Chikara...

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