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#322974 - 02/18/07 02:16 PM Re: The slippery slope begins! New era fighting? [Re: SEAL]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I don't buy it, sorry. Lets break down these last comments you made.

Quote:

I'm not comparing MMA training to pro wrestling training.




While they are two different things I take nothing away from either as they both work extremely hard to obtain the peak of their game. I wouldn't be surprised for some that there are some similarties even in their training not to mention commitment. However each have different goals so their training is directed to their end means.

Quote:

I'm comparing the sport of MMA to the fake sport of pro wrestling.




These are two different things and are like comparing apples and oranges. Sport MMA is just that sport. Pro Wrestling is sport entertainment; they are athletes and some fine specimens. How each is marketing is different. Pro Wrestling has story lines and many of those story lines are actually based upon actual feelings towards other wrestlers but it is for entertainment purposes and is promoted as such much like a soap opera. Sport MMA is nothing like that and if you have watched boxing for years there have always been rivalries and the promotors have always played up upon that it is just that the marketing team of the UFC have taken that to the next level.

In the beginning sport MMA was done for the pure ethusiasts and they needed no such hype and build up. But since sport MMA is now on prime time TV that millions of viewers are watching, not to mention going to venues or renting PPVs, the marketing team of the UFC and others realized that their average viewers needed to connect with the fighters and so have marketed in the way they did. And again this is no different then boxing was and I will remind you of the first and second fight of Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield. Millions were spent on promoting this fight and the whole world watched and they made money hand over fist. The UFC and others have used this formula and have taken it a step further. With shows like the Ultimate Fighter they have allowed your average couch potato to connect with fighters on a different level, see into their lives and their personalities and to either like or hate a fighter thus making it more exciting to watch.

For myself I'd watch either way as I enjoy it. I don't need to know the fighter in order to enjoy the fight or recognize what is going on. However since it is in my face and I enjoy it, I don't mind partaking in connecting more with the fighters and joining the millions loving or hating a fighter.

When those guys step in the ring the better person that day will win; and the person who was suppose to win doesn't always win as everybody has a fighter's chance. In Professional Wrestling the outcome is already determined and what happens in the ring is talked about prior to the match, rehearsed and felt out while in the ring. One is a fight (MMA Sport) and one is a match (Pro Wrestling). You cannot compare the two. What happens in that ring is the deciding factor and all of the glitz and glamour of the promotion does not define when the end result is.
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#322975 - 02/18/07 02:55 PM Re: The slippery slope begins! New era fighting? [Re: Dereck]
SEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 139
Quote:

I don't buy it, sorry. Lets break down these last comments you made.

Quote:

I'm not comparing MMA training to pro wrestling training.




While they are two different things I take nothing away from either as they both work extremely hard to obtain the peak of their game. I wouldn't be surprised for some that there are some similarties even in their training not to mention commitment. However each have different goals so their training is directed to their end means.

Quote:

I'm comparing the sport of MMA to the fake sport of pro wrestling.




These are two different things and are like comparing apples and oranges. Sport MMA is just that sport. Pro Wrestling is sport entertainment; they are athletes and some fine specimens. How each is marketing is different. Pro Wrestling has story lines and many of those story lines are actually based upon actual feelings towards other wrestlers but it is for entertainment purposes and is promoted as such much like a soap opera. Sport MMA is nothing like that and if you have watched boxing for years there have always been rivalries and the promotors have always played up upon that it is just that the marketing team of the UFC have taken that to the next level.

In the beginning sport MMA was done for the pure ethusiasts and they needed no such hype and build up. But since sport MMA is now on prime time TV that millions of viewers are watching, not to mention going to venues or renting PPVs, the marketing team of the UFC and others realized that their average viewers needed to connect with the fighters and so have marketed in the way they did. And again this is no different then boxing was and I will remind you of the first and second fight of Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield. Millions were spent on promoting this fight and the whole world watched and they made money hand over fist. The UFC and others have used this formula and have taken it a step further. With shows like the Ultimate Fighter they have allowed your average couch potato to connect with fighters on a different level, see into their lives and their personalities and to either like or hate a fighter thus making it more exciting to watch.

For myself I'd watch either way as I enjoy it. I don't need to know the fighter in order to enjoy the fight or recognize what is going on. However since it is in my face and I enjoy it, I don't mind partaking in connecting more with the fighters and joining the millions loving or hating a fighter.

When those guys step in the ring the better person that day will win; and the person who was suppose to win doesn't always win as everybody has a fighter's chance. In Professional Wrestling the outcome is already determined and what happens in the ring is talked about prior to the match, rehearsed and felt out while in the ring. One is a fight (MMA Sport) and one is a match (Pro Wrestling). You cannot compare the two. What happens in that ring is the deciding factor and all of the glitz and glamour of the promotion does not define when the end result is.




Training is different. Pain is yielded by both.

Now then, as far as what you said, you basically contradicted yourself by saying they're apples and oranges because you essentially made the same point I did. They are both forms of entertainment, as is boxing. Tito and Ken were promoted exactly like a pro wrestling feud. I apologize; maybe it's my insider terms that's making this confusing. I'll try and be more endearing.

The marketing and promotion for pro wrestling is no different than mma or boxing or any other sport. The business sense is the same. How you promote an up-and-coming boxer or mma'er or pro wrestler is the same. The way UFC is building up Mirko for the North American audience is one pro wrestling and boxing has used forever. TUF is a perfect example of how pro wrestling USED to promote guys and matches on a consistent basis. UFC does a better job at pro wrestling promotion than pro wrestling right now. Dave Meltzer, a pro wrestling and mma insider -- I imagine you heard of'em -- instructed Dana White how to book (meaning the pre-fight and post-fight promotion such as the Ken montage video) Tito and Ken for their Spike TV match. I'm not sure what else I can say at the moment. And the reasons that you or I enjoy an mma event may be different for the casual viewer. You always be there. I will always be there. But it's the casual viewer that inspires growth. I guess if you are still confused why I say the marketing and promotion of pro wrestling, mma, and boxing are all equivalent, well, I suggest e-mailing Dave Meltzer or Bryan Alvarez, both of whom cover wrestling and mma (Melzer covers some boxing).

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#322976 - 02/18/07 03:12 PM Re: The slippery slope begins! New era fighting? [Re: SEAL]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
You are talking marketing which is a whole different ball game. What I'm saying is that MMA is not like Pro Wrestling, they are two different things and "are" apples and oranges; they are different. If you want to talk marketing then that is a different ball game and like I said, there has always been marketing ... that is how you sell you product. Whether it is MMA, Pro Wrestling, a new Ford truck, the newest and biggest TV, etc. You have to create the want for the consumer to want to buy it. Just because MMA is marketing their product doesn't make it the same as Pro Wrestling any different then MMA is the same as the Ford truck or TV. I've done marketing, I went to school for it.

Everything is a product, that is the only thing that MMA and Pro Wrestling have in common. How the promotors want to market it has no bearing on what the end product is. One is sports and one is sports entertainment. One is a fight the other is a match. One is played out in the ring and the better person that night wins; the other is scripted to allow fans to have their favorite to win or to create controversy to set up the next story line. I couldn't care a less if there was only one marketer in the world and he/she was responsible for marketing everything ... it doesn't mean the products are the same.

Quote:

They are both forms of entertainment, as is boxing.




So is the ice capades. So is NHL hockey. So is NBA basketball. So is MLB baseball. So is CATS. So is The Phantom of the Opera. So is the next big movie. So is Jerry Springer. I guess they are also the same as MMA, right?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#322977 - 02/18/07 03:56 PM Re: The slippery slope begins! New era fighting? [Re: Dereck]
SEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 139
Easy, my friend. Yes, I'm talking marketing. And the products are not exactly the same. But what IS the same is how you promote the product. The essense of an mma, boxing, or pro wrestling match is the build up, the hype. The match is the payoff. If you hyped it up right and the payoff was good, then the theory is the fans will come back for more. This applies to any sport. But if you a little deeper into combat sports, what you have is two guys and the idea is to see which one is the better man that day. Take Sylvia and Couture. The storyline here is Couture is coming out of retirement. Will he become the champion again? Or, will Sylvia be too much for him? And there is Mirko looming on the outside. It's a real, authentic storyline that will aide in building up the match to pop a hefty buyrate for the PPV event. The build up for a title fight in this type of manner is something I've seen countless times in pro wrestling and boxing. How you hook the fans is through the hype. That is how you get them to buy the match. This is the common thread. The ideas and concepts for building, for hyping up a pro wrestling match is no different than an mma or boxing fight. Guys like Mauro Ranallo, Stephen Quadros, Josh Barnett, Tito Ortiz, and Frank and Ken Shamrock, amongst others, would tell you no different.


Edited by SEAL (02/18/07 04:19 PM)

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#322978 - 02/18/07 05:25 PM Re: The slippery slope begins! New era fighting? [Re: SEAL]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
SEAL, the following is a post I made in a related discussion, and i think its relevant here:

"there will always be a fundamental difference between 'sports entertainment' wrestling and MMA- that being the complicity of the fighters in the pre-arranged outcome of a fight.
In wrestling, the story lines are set by the management, then the wrestlers are charged with creating 'a work' that is both entertaining, and concludes with the decided victor coming out on top. some believe that these 'works' are pre choreographed, but the schedule and traveling does not allow this. All the wrestlers train together, and learn how to react/position themselves for one anothers trademark moves, and from there, it is made up as they go, in the ring, using short code at lulls in the performance (on the turnbuckle, on the floor, etc). It is very skillful in its own right, but its not a 'fight' per se.

MMA is a fight, and, as with boxing, the use of slow mo replay has pretty much made the risk of a fighter 'taking a dive' a slim one- fighters fight hard and for real, and are not complicit in any actions taken by judges, referees, or in the match making that is the promoters real tool for influencing the outcome of MMA competition. Most overt examples of this I can think of are that Crocop was given a donkey, and Rich franklin was 'protected' from having to face lindland through loopholes and politics.
neither of these scnarios were in the control of the fighters they favoured. One could argue that the winners credibility suffers from such 'help'. Hence Rampage being brought in for Lidell, as many could not see any valid oponents in the existing ranks for Chuck to make a good fight with (Jardine and Forrest are brave and popular enough, but do not have the tools at present IMO), and so Dana ran the risk of people losing interest in his No.1 'attraction', if given 'easy' oponents. In this way, a promoters influence works either way, dependant on the situation. "

Whilst a 'grudge match' is never harmful to a genuine combat sport environment, it is not essential. The skills and quality of the match up can be draw enough, allowing for mutual respect between the athletes. Because WWE style wrestling is not, in essence, a true competition, the tension and anticipation must be artificialy produced through faux personal conflict in the build up to the performance. Remember The Big Boss Man driving off dragging big show's fathers coffin from his funeral!?
there will always be a fundamental difference between marketing fiction and reality- they have different target audiences.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#322979 - 02/18/07 06:37 PM Re: The slippery slope begins! New era fighting? [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
SEAL -

Cord actually makes my point much better than I could. MMA (even the sport) is not really in the same league as Pro Wrestling, due to the uncertainty (realism) factor.

MMA are real fights - like boxing. Pro Wrestling, while very skillful and athletic, are not real fights as Cord stated.

I agree with you that the marketing elements are similar, but that is about as far as that goes. Now, this particular thing with Kimo, you might be right. I don't know enough about it yet.


Edited by MattJ (02/18/07 06:39 PM)
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#322980 - 02/19/07 02:21 PM Re: The slippery slope begins! New era fighting? [Re: SEAL]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Seal, I agree that the marketing of the product is very similar as it is with other products. Pro Wrestling builds story lines based on false information whereas MMA takes realism and exploits it. Very similar and I would expect nothing other as they are trying to get to a similar audience. However the discussion was regards to your statement:

Quote:

Remember, MMA is essentially pro wrestling with shoot fights. As much as MMA purists can't stand to hear it, it's the truth.




I think this is why I and others have our arms up in dismay. Marketing being similar, the actual product is different. Some similarities with athletes in great shape having skills to submit an opponent but the means and realism are what separate them. Yes they are both entertainment and why the marketing would be similar but the product is different.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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