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#321603 - 02/11/07 11:02 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Well, pal, the first anybody heard of the Gracies in the general MA community was after that Yoshida match, so BS or not, it was their public "coming out party" and the movies of it are famous. Like I said, I don't personally follow MMA, and remember when Royce Gracie was only known as a Judo player.




The Gracies were known by more people than Yoshida before that match. They (and Royce specifically) have been known outside the MA community since UFC 1. People who didn't know the diference between two martial arts and couldn't name anyone else still knew who Royce Gracie was. He was the most famous MA personality who wasn't a movie star. The first international match between Gracies and Judo was between Helio Gracie and Masahiko Kimura ~50 years ago.

Quote:

I find it hilarious that you get the win by going to the hospital... maybe it's better to be the loser in that scenario.




He got the win because Frank used an illegal move that Renzo had plenty of opportunity to use earlier in the match but didn't. Had knees to the head on the ground been allowed, Renzo would have likely finished Frank early in the first round and Frank would have never had the opportunity to knee him in the back of the head.

Quote:

One of my good friends lost the world championship in karate by knocking out his opponent in 2.5 seconds of the first round for using "excessive contact". I'm betting he would have rather been the loser than remembered as the "champion who got knocked out" to win.




The thing is, Renzo was owning Frank for the whole fight. It's different from Frank beating him in dominating fashion early in the first round with an illegal move.

Quote:

I always wonder how you have "excessive contact" or "illegal strikes" when you have an open rules forums like some of the MMA.




Both fighters agree on the rules ahead of time. If they don't like the rules they can chose not to fight and fight as they wish in an environment where the moves they want to use aren't disallowed. Both fighters were capable of fighting with knees to the head on the ground. Renzo has fought in Pride where they were expressly allowed. It's not like it was something he was unfamiliar with. They both had agreed, in writing, that knees to the head on the ground were not to be used, that's how it was determined.

Quote:

I just watched the Shamrock-Gracie fight again, and it still looks like Gracie put himself in the position to get his brains knocked out.




To you maybe, to people in the know he was controlling Frank and Frank was using a desperation move. If that was his plan all along, he should have asked for knees to the head on the ground in the beginning and asked for it to be held on a Reservation where that would be allowed.

Quote:

While Gracie was "controlling the fight" from the top position, he was taking a beating from knee strikes into the ribs, and turned himself so his head was in the line of fire from Shamrock's knees.




While he was taking the knees to the ribs from Frank, he was in position to knee Frank's brains out, but didn't, because he agreed not to use knees to the head.

Quote:

It's kind of like blocking a punch with your chin... and then blaming the guy for knocking you out. His "top position" looked more defensive to me than offensive, and he was still getting pounded.




That's more like BJ/Hughes 2, where BJ admitted he prefered taking punches to the face than to his seperated ribs at the time. He didn't blame anyone for it though. Renzo didn't blame Sakuraba for breaking his arm either, he's clearly not a guy who complains if he loses fairly.

Quote:

Don't worry though, the promoters will have them back in the ring and on television at some elevated cost to everyone... promoters love "grudge matches". If you need more drama, watch the WWF or WWE or whatever they call the other acronym wrestling federations. It's all choreagraphed by the promoters.




This was hardly choreographed. When Ortiz/Shamrock 2 ended with controversy, they had to show it on free TV to get people to be willing to watch it again. A controversial stoppage is not good for an organisation making its debut.

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#321604 - 02/11/07 11:21 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: migo]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Migo, like I said, I remember when Royce Gracie was known for his Judo skills, not his BJJ skills. All the other junk is just history and "what could have been". With the situation as it is now, you can't take this too seriously.

I have to agree that the disqualification wasn't "choreagraphed" until after it happened, but you could clearly see the referee and judges talking each other into declaring the DQ... so it was "choreagraphed"... just kind of after the fact. They all know that another Renzo Gracie - Frank Shamrock rematch will be worth mucho buckos... and whether or not you choose to believe it or not, all this hoopla is all about the money.

Just like wrestling, once the promoters get hold of it... MMA will be like Wide-World Wrestling, and the soap operas between fighters will be just like all the other tripe that's involved with these venues. Right now, it's the "Shamrocks vs the Gracies" as the headliner, but it'll change weekly just like professional wrestling once they find a promoter that can keep it wound up.

John Goodman played a part in "O Brother where art thou" that had the perfect line for this..."it's all about the money, boys"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321605 - 02/11/07 11:42 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I agree with you migo. I also think the promoters control some aspect of the judgement, though.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321606 - 02/11/07 11:42 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Migo, like I said, I remember when Royce Gracie was known for his Judo skills, not his BJJ skills. All the other junk is just history and "what could have been". With the situation as it is now, you can't take this too seriously.




Then you were only talking to Judoka who felt they needed to appropriate Royce's success. Royce was better known among Judoka than Yoshida was before their fight. Your point is still invalid for a number of other reasons, which I already mentioned: Royce kicked Yoshida in the balls in the rematch - it was payback for Yoshida and Shimada cheating to get a win that Yoshida clearly didn't have the skills to get on Royce (as demonstrated by their second fight) and earned Yoshida the nick-name Yocheata that took him several years to shake off and demonstrate he was actually a legit fighter. It wasn't the coming out party for the Gracies, if you want to use that argument it happened a year earlier. And striking wasn't added to the rules. The only surprise was that Royce didn't wear a gi-jacket, which wasn't required by the rules but everyone expected him to because he had never fought without the gi jacket before NYE2003.

Quote:

I have to agree that the disqualification wasn't "choreagraphed" until after it happened, but you could clearly see the referee and judges talking each other into declaring the DQ... so it was "choreagraphed"... just kind of after the fact. They all know that another Renzo Gracie - Frank Shamrock rematch will be worth mucho buckos... and whether or not you choose to believe it or not, all this hoopla is all about the money.




It's more that people don't like to have to stop fights because of DQ, they were weighing the options. DQs are quite rare in MMA.

Quote:

Just like wrestling, once the promoters get hold of it... MMA will be like Wide-World Wrestling, and the soap operas between fighters will be just like all the other tripe that's involved with these venues. Right now, it's the "Shamrocks vs the Gracies" as the headliner, but it'll change weekly just like professional wrestling once they find a promoter that can keep it wound up.




Even Japan, which has it more like pro-wrestling that NA right now, doesn't have it as extreme as WWE.

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#321607 - 02/12/07 01:39 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Chen Zen]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

As for the Loiseau fight, I was surprised too, having seen him fight before. Rather disappointing.




I am too. Ever since his loss to Rich Franklin he just doesn't seem the same. His fight against Mike Swick surprised me to and it wasn't till the last round that I saw a hint of the old Loiseau and then it was lost again. Perhaps Loiseau needs to refind himself as it appears he may be a little gunshy or something. He's a good fighter and he needs to realize this and find it again.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#321608 - 02/12/07 01:44 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Dereck]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
He seemed pretty timid. He landed a few good shots but never attempted to follow it up. He was a solid fighter before the loss to Rich, Maybe we'll get to see it from him again before its all said and done.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321609 - 02/12/07 01:55 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

I agree with you migo. I also think the promoters control some aspect of the judgement, though.




Yeah, there's definitely some weighing going on. There's also the thing that they want to give the fouled fighter an opportunity to keep fighting. I've been hit by some illegal moves in competition and was glad to have the opportunity to keep fighting since I was ok for them. If you're rocked by a kick to the balls it's normal to give some time for the fighter to recover. In most cases they do, in the case of Faircloth/Sakara he couldn't and it was a no contest - because it was unintentional, they can happen with inside thigh kicks. Frank's knee to the head was quite intentional, hence the DQ when Renzo couldn't continue.

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#321610 - 02/12/07 01:59 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It looked like at first they were going to give him the chance to go on. The ref signaled for a timeout but went and raised Frank's hand twenty seconds later. It was intentional, his comments before hand and afterwards makes that apparent. Sometimes theres accidents, no doubt, but after you've been warned and continue to do so anyway, then you deserve to lose, period.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321611 - 02/12/07 11:26 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Just like wrestling, once the promoters get hold of it... MMA will be like Wide-World Wrestling, and the soap operas between fighters will be just like all the other tripe that's involved with these venues.




there will always be a fundamental difference between 'sports entertainment' wrestling and MMA- that being the complicity of the fighters in the pre-arranged outcome of a fight.
In wrestling, the story lines are set by the management, then the wrestlers are charged with creating 'a work' that is both entertaining, and concludes with the decided victor coming out on top. some believe that these 'works' are pre choreographed, but the schedule and traveling does not allow this. All the wrestlers train together, and learn how to react/position themselves for one anothers trademark moves, and from there, it is made up as they go, in the ring, using short code at lulls in the performance (on the turnbuckle, on the floor, etc). It is very skillful in its own right, but its not a 'fight' per se.

MMA is a fight, and, as with boxing, the use of slow mo replay has pretty much made the risk of a fighter 'taking a dive' a slim one- fighters fight hard and for real, and are not complicit in any actions taken by judges, referees, or in the match making that is the promoters real tool for influencing the outcome of MMA competition. Most overt examples of this I can think of are that Crocop was given a donkey, and Rich franklin was 'protected' from having to face lindland through loopholes and politics.
neither of these scnarios were in the control of the fighters they favoured. One could argue that the winners credibility suffers from such 'help'. Hence Rampage being brought in for Lidell, as many could not see any valid oponents in the existing ranks for Chuck to make a good fight with (Jardine and Forrest are brave and popular enough, but do not have the tools at present IMO), and so Dana ran the risk of people losing interest in his No.1 'attraction', if given 'easy' oponents. In this way, a promoters influence works either way, dependant on the situation.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#321612 - 02/12/07 05:20 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

Well, pal, the first anybody heard of the Gracies in the general MA community was after that Yoshida match, so BS or not, it was their public "coming out party" and the movies of it are famous. Like I said, I don't personally follow MMA, and remember when Royce Gracie was only known as a Judo player.




This makes me wonder either what rock you have been hiding under or what agenda you are pushing. Kindly refrain from comments that have no purpose other than to take a veiled swipe at the Gracies. Your history of doing so is well documented here, uncalled for and unwelcome.

Quote:

I find it hilarious that you get the win by going to the hospital... maybe it's better to be the loser in that scenario. One of my good friends lost the world championship in karate by knocking out his opponent in 2.5 seconds of the first round for using "excessive contact". I'm betting he would have rather been the loser than remembered as the "champion who got knocked out" to win.

I always wonder how you have "excessive contact" or "illegal strikes" when you have an open rules forums like some of the MMA. I just watched the Shamrock-Gracie fight again, and it still looks like Gracie put himself in the position to get his brains knocked out.

While Gracie was "controlling the fight" from the top position, he was taking a beating from knee strikes into the ribs, and turned himself so his head was in the line of fire from Shamrock's knees. It's kind of like blocking a punch with your chin... and then blaming the guy for knocking you out. His "top position" looked more defensive to me than offensive, and he was still getting pounded.






Even funnier that the rules were agreed upon by fighters before hand. Rules that were insisted upon by Frank. You don't get to make your own rules and then break them and claim "Hey I thought I was in a fight. I'm old school."

Your observations and comments reveal how little you understand of the game in spite of your vast martial arts experience.

Carry on...
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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