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#321593 - 02/11/07 12:58 AM Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I went to the fights tonight, and there were some great ones. Only two went the distance. All the rest ended in the first round.

The first match was Bo Cantrell versus Tim Percy. Percy, an Oyama representative won in the first round by KO.

Local Memphian Mike Powell won in the first round with the RNC against Ross Inez.

Our other local boy, Adriano Nasal, lost in a contreversial split decision to Javier Vazquez.

Another noted local, John Shackleford lost to Edson Berto by TKO. First round.

The next match put Cris Gates against Tokyo's own Riki Fukuda. Fukuda won by tko.

Kj Noons vs Charles Crazy horse Bennett was a contreversial match due to Bennetts less than spectacular attitude. Bennett did go on to win by ko.

The best fight of the night, and the only one to put the whole crowd on its feet came from the two female competitors of the night. Gina Carano completely dominated julie Kenzie in what turned out to be a spectacular fight. If we had more women like these two there would definately be a Womans MMA league.

The worst fight of the night had to be between David Loiseau and joe Villasenor. Very slow paced, little striking and subpar grappling. Villasenor wins by decision.

The super heavyweight fight between Antonio Silva and Wesley Correra was excellent. Slugfest all around with the win going to silva.

The last fight of the night was one of the shortest and worse Ive seen. Im highly dissapointed. Shamrock came away with the win over Gracie. Not by ko, or by submission but by use of what looked like to many to be an illegal move. He kneed Renzo in the back of the neck, twice, at the base of his skull. To Shamrocks credit, he was on his back so from his angle he might not have known he was doing it, but after a onesided first round, it was felt that he did it as an easy out for the win. Had the fight go on I feel Renzo would have easily alked away the victor. All in all a good night.

I got to Meet Bill Goldberg Briefly as well as the EliteXC girls! Way hot! Some other notable faces would be Quinton Action Jackson, Forrest Griffin, Jimmy Kimmel, The Memphis Grizzlies, Jeff Mullen and of course, Myself!

Well worth the money spent.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321594 - 02/11/07 01:19 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Chen Zen]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Gina Carino is my future wife

She put on the best performance of the night. Frank Shamrock lost by QD, they decided the knees to the back of the head were on purpose, because he had received a warning.

It was funny how they tried to keep the fight going for the sake of EliteXC reputation instead of the safety of the athletes.

First when they saw that Renzo could not continue, Frank began to raise his hand, then the ref came over and held it up...He was called the winner...but not officially. Then they saw Renzo was trying to stand up, so they gave him the 5 minutes to recuperate so they cold continue the match. ONce they saw he might have a concussion and needs medical attention, then the ref, annoucner and head of EliteXC get together and determine that Frank Shamrock purposefully kneed Renzo on the back of the head.

All the while Renzo ws trying to recover so they could continue the fight. Frank was trash talking saying that "he came here to fight not wrestle."

Ofcourse it was obvious to anyone that Renzo had dominated the first round and held top and side ground control for the majority of both rounds.

Once Renzo left the ring, the ref made the official announcement. Renzo Gracie wins, Shamrock loses due to DQ. This wipes the smirk off Shamrock's face. He then starts making claims that Renzo knew he was going to get knocked out that is why he took it to the mats, and became afraid so he used this little excuse to bow out gracefully.

He later comments that he is "old school" and he does whatever he does to win.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#321595 - 02/11/07 09:22 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The worst fight of the night had to be between David Loiseau and joe Villasenor. Very slow paced, little striking and subpar grappling. Villasenor wins by decision.




Somewhat surprised to hear that. Loiseau I have seen before. Good striker, and good on the ground, at least at defending.

Gina I'll have to look up!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#321596 - 02/11/07 10:23 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: TeK9]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:



He later comments that he is "old school" and he does whatever he does to win.




Wow. How classy. This after trying to use "the rules" to get stood up. Sounds like Sham lost a lot of fans in his "big comeback."

Sad.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#321597 - 02/11/07 12:42 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Fletch1]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I watched the Showtime coverage of this fight last night, and I think Shamrock got hosed... but of course, the Gracies have been getting a pass on lots of things over the years to keep their legend alive.

Every time Gracie took Shamrock down, he was getting hammered in the ribs and kidney area with knees, so he changed his position on this last grapple to a "face forward" position. If Shamrock had pasted him in the face, I'm betting that they would have given Gracie the same pass he got for the "behind the head" blow that caused the DQ.

The referee was standing there watching the whole thing, and didn't say a word until Gracie rolled off with a concussion, so it's as much his fault as Shamrock's... he was just hitting what he could reach. Gracie had the option of moving his head and neck out of the way.

Like anything else that involves big money, this is becoming like Wide World wrestling with the "drama" being choreagraphed by the promoters. Since it involved the Gracies, there would have been some controversy if Shamrock had been standing there boxing him and knocked him out.

My question has always been... how can you have "unrestricted fighting" with rules? If "anything goes", then whatever happens happens... it's one thing to stop a fight when a guy is unprotected and unable to defend himself, but in an open fighting tournament, there shouldn't be an illegal hit called because the guy they wanted to win got knocked out.

I couldn't sleep last night is the only reason I watched this, and it lived down to all my expectations.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321598 - 02/11/07 04:34 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I was so disappointed when i saw the ref raise Frank's hand that I left before the official announcement, and to beat the traffic. Im glad to hear he got DQ'd. They took Renzo out of the ring with a neck brace. Not to mention Shamrock had a pretty crappy attitude. I dont know how much of his commentary got played on Showtime but they had talked to him several times throughout the night. He even once said that "he built MMA" and that if he fought a Gracie he "wanted to hurt them" so that the world knew that the "Shamrock's are the original family of MMA" . Whatever all that means.

As for the Loiseau fight, I was surprised too, having seen him fight before. Rather disappointing.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321599 - 02/11/07 05:21 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Fletch1]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Fletch1

You would think so, but this seemed to be a Shamrock crowd, because the people blamed Gracie and cheered for Shamrock. Almost a completely different crowd than UFC fans. They actually cheered the trash talker.

After the fight Ceaser Gracie came out on behalf of Renzo and stated that Renzo may have a concussion and that he is being taken to the hospital. He commented that there are rules in MMA and that this is not a street fight.

Shamrock countered by stating he must have missed the day they were going over the new rules. Because he is from the old school...

Shamrock later said "If this is the only way the Gracies can beat me fine...sure I'll take this loss, I mean I haven't lost in ten years and if this is how they want to do it."
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#321600 - 02/11/07 06:35 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: TeK9]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I don't keep up with MMA on any scale, but I do think that the Gracies are the last ones who should ever get a "rules victory", since the way they made their reputation was by kicking the famous Judoka from Japan in the ballz to open their first international match (which was clearly against the rules). Everybody always seems to give them a pass on breaking rules or by calling it "innovative technique", but as long as their name has been involved in MA, it's been clouded by their obsession with winning by any means. If you want to fight like that, you shouldn't whine if you get a dose of your own medicine.

I've been around since the 60's in MA, and have seen some true "bad a$$es" in the ring, and gotten my bell rung by a few of them... but they all followed the rules and didn't try to make them up as they went along. That, unfortunately, seems to be the history of the Gracies. They were good grapplers, but they took their grappling skills to a different level when they decided to add the punching and kicking into their "tournament style" without bothering to inform their competitors.

The way to appear invincible is to have the other guy disqualified if he beats you. My take on Renzo's action in this one, was that he decided he didn't want Shamrock banging into his ribs with those knee strikes and took a different position, which put his head in the wrong place, and he ended up paying for it. The strikes looked to me like they were into the muscle area between his neck and shoulder. If they were, and hit his head, they had to be glancing blows, not directly into the head as they claimed. I suppose it's a little harder to aim your strikes when you're upside down with somebody sitting on your chest, but that's just me...

Just as a question, how many of you train doing knee strikes upside down while being held down? Apparently, that's going to be a new rules violation, so you better add it to your training schedule.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321601 - 02/11/07 08:48 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

I don't keep up with MMA on any scale, but I do think that the Gracies are the last ones who should ever get a "rules victory", since the way they made their reputation was by kicking the famous Judoka from Japan in the ballz to open their first international match (which was clearly against the rules).




That's COMPLETE [censored]. That was a rematch, and payback for Yoshida and the Japanese ref cheating so that they could get a win over Royce. And it was nowhere near being the first international match. Or 10th. Or 100th. Or 1000th.

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#321602 - 02/11/07 10:46 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: migo]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Well, pal, the first anybody heard of the Gracies in the general MA community was after that Yoshida match, so BS or not, it was their public "coming out party" and the movies of it are famous. Like I said, I don't personally follow MMA, and remember when Royce Gracie was only known as a Judo player.

I find it hilarious that you get the win by going to the hospital... maybe it's better to be the loser in that scenario. One of my good friends lost the world championship in karate by knocking out his opponent in 2.5 seconds of the first round for using "excessive contact". I'm betting he would have rather been the loser than remembered as the "champion who got knocked out" to win.

I always wonder how you have "excessive contact" or "illegal strikes" when you have an open rules forums like some of the MMA. I just watched the Shamrock-Gracie fight again, and it still looks like Gracie put himself in the position to get his brains knocked out.

While Gracie was "controlling the fight" from the top position, he was taking a beating from knee strikes into the ribs, and turned himself so his head was in the line of fire from Shamrock's knees. It's kind of like blocking a punch with your chin... and then blaming the guy for knocking you out. His "top position" looked more defensive to me than offensive, and he was still getting pounded.

Don't worry though, the promoters will have them back in the ring and on television at some elevated cost to everyone... promoters love "grudge matches". If you need more drama, watch the WWF or WWE or whatever they call the other acronym wrestling federations. It's all choreagraphed by the promoters.

I could tell you stories about it, but my buddy Ric Flair would get mad at me. He's almost as old as me, and still makes the crowds go wild... Grandpa wrestling at it's best...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321603 - 02/11/07 11:02 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Well, pal, the first anybody heard of the Gracies in the general MA community was after that Yoshida match, so BS or not, it was their public "coming out party" and the movies of it are famous. Like I said, I don't personally follow MMA, and remember when Royce Gracie was only known as a Judo player.




The Gracies were known by more people than Yoshida before that match. They (and Royce specifically) have been known outside the MA community since UFC 1. People who didn't know the diference between two martial arts and couldn't name anyone else still knew who Royce Gracie was. He was the most famous MA personality who wasn't a movie star. The first international match between Gracies and Judo was between Helio Gracie and Masahiko Kimura ~50 years ago.

Quote:

I find it hilarious that you get the win by going to the hospital... maybe it's better to be the loser in that scenario.




He got the win because Frank used an illegal move that Renzo had plenty of opportunity to use earlier in the match but didn't. Had knees to the head on the ground been allowed, Renzo would have likely finished Frank early in the first round and Frank would have never had the opportunity to knee him in the back of the head.

Quote:

One of my good friends lost the world championship in karate by knocking out his opponent in 2.5 seconds of the first round for using "excessive contact". I'm betting he would have rather been the loser than remembered as the "champion who got knocked out" to win.




The thing is, Renzo was owning Frank for the whole fight. It's different from Frank beating him in dominating fashion early in the first round with an illegal move.

Quote:

I always wonder how you have "excessive contact" or "illegal strikes" when you have an open rules forums like some of the MMA.




Both fighters agree on the rules ahead of time. If they don't like the rules they can chose not to fight and fight as they wish in an environment where the moves they want to use aren't disallowed. Both fighters were capable of fighting with knees to the head on the ground. Renzo has fought in Pride where they were expressly allowed. It's not like it was something he was unfamiliar with. They both had agreed, in writing, that knees to the head on the ground were not to be used, that's how it was determined.

Quote:

I just watched the Shamrock-Gracie fight again, and it still looks like Gracie put himself in the position to get his brains knocked out.




To you maybe, to people in the know he was controlling Frank and Frank was using a desperation move. If that was his plan all along, he should have asked for knees to the head on the ground in the beginning and asked for it to be held on a Reservation where that would be allowed.

Quote:

While Gracie was "controlling the fight" from the top position, he was taking a beating from knee strikes into the ribs, and turned himself so his head was in the line of fire from Shamrock's knees.




While he was taking the knees to the ribs from Frank, he was in position to knee Frank's brains out, but didn't, because he agreed not to use knees to the head.

Quote:

It's kind of like blocking a punch with your chin... and then blaming the guy for knocking you out. His "top position" looked more defensive to me than offensive, and he was still getting pounded.




That's more like BJ/Hughes 2, where BJ admitted he prefered taking punches to the face than to his seperated ribs at the time. He didn't blame anyone for it though. Renzo didn't blame Sakuraba for breaking his arm either, he's clearly not a guy who complains if he loses fairly.

Quote:

Don't worry though, the promoters will have them back in the ring and on television at some elevated cost to everyone... promoters love "grudge matches". If you need more drama, watch the WWF or WWE or whatever they call the other acronym wrestling federations. It's all choreagraphed by the promoters.




This was hardly choreographed. When Ortiz/Shamrock 2 ended with controversy, they had to show it on free TV to get people to be willing to watch it again. A controversial stoppage is not good for an organisation making its debut.

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#321604 - 02/11/07 11:21 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: migo]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Migo, like I said, I remember when Royce Gracie was known for his Judo skills, not his BJJ skills. All the other junk is just history and "what could have been". With the situation as it is now, you can't take this too seriously.

I have to agree that the disqualification wasn't "choreagraphed" until after it happened, but you could clearly see the referee and judges talking each other into declaring the DQ... so it was "choreagraphed"... just kind of after the fact. They all know that another Renzo Gracie - Frank Shamrock rematch will be worth mucho buckos... and whether or not you choose to believe it or not, all this hoopla is all about the money.

Just like wrestling, once the promoters get hold of it... MMA will be like Wide-World Wrestling, and the soap operas between fighters will be just like all the other tripe that's involved with these venues. Right now, it's the "Shamrocks vs the Gracies" as the headliner, but it'll change weekly just like professional wrestling once they find a promoter that can keep it wound up.

John Goodman played a part in "O Brother where art thou" that had the perfect line for this..."it's all about the money, boys"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321605 - 02/11/07 11:42 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I agree with you migo. I also think the promoters control some aspect of the judgement, though.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321606 - 02/11/07 11:42 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Migo, like I said, I remember when Royce Gracie was known for his Judo skills, not his BJJ skills. All the other junk is just history and "what could have been". With the situation as it is now, you can't take this too seriously.




Then you were only talking to Judoka who felt they needed to appropriate Royce's success. Royce was better known among Judoka than Yoshida was before their fight. Your point is still invalid for a number of other reasons, which I already mentioned: Royce kicked Yoshida in the balls in the rematch - it was payback for Yoshida and Shimada cheating to get a win that Yoshida clearly didn't have the skills to get on Royce (as demonstrated by their second fight) and earned Yoshida the nick-name Yocheata that took him several years to shake off and demonstrate he was actually a legit fighter. It wasn't the coming out party for the Gracies, if you want to use that argument it happened a year earlier. And striking wasn't added to the rules. The only surprise was that Royce didn't wear a gi-jacket, which wasn't required by the rules but everyone expected him to because he had never fought without the gi jacket before NYE2003.

Quote:

I have to agree that the disqualification wasn't "choreagraphed" until after it happened, but you could clearly see the referee and judges talking each other into declaring the DQ... so it was "choreagraphed"... just kind of after the fact. They all know that another Renzo Gracie - Frank Shamrock rematch will be worth mucho buckos... and whether or not you choose to believe it or not, all this hoopla is all about the money.




It's more that people don't like to have to stop fights because of DQ, they were weighing the options. DQs are quite rare in MMA.

Quote:

Just like wrestling, once the promoters get hold of it... MMA will be like Wide-World Wrestling, and the soap operas between fighters will be just like all the other tripe that's involved with these venues. Right now, it's the "Shamrocks vs the Gracies" as the headliner, but it'll change weekly just like professional wrestling once they find a promoter that can keep it wound up.




Even Japan, which has it more like pro-wrestling that NA right now, doesn't have it as extreme as WWE.

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#321607 - 02/12/07 01:39 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Chen Zen]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

As for the Loiseau fight, I was surprised too, having seen him fight before. Rather disappointing.




I am too. Ever since his loss to Rich Franklin he just doesn't seem the same. His fight against Mike Swick surprised me to and it wasn't till the last round that I saw a hint of the old Loiseau and then it was lost again. Perhaps Loiseau needs to refind himself as it appears he may be a little gunshy or something. He's a good fighter and he needs to realize this and find it again.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#321608 - 02/12/07 01:44 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Dereck]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
He seemed pretty timid. He landed a few good shots but never attempted to follow it up. He was a solid fighter before the loss to Rich, Maybe we'll get to see it from him again before its all said and done.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321609 - 02/12/07 01:55 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

I agree with you migo. I also think the promoters control some aspect of the judgement, though.




Yeah, there's definitely some weighing going on. There's also the thing that they want to give the fouled fighter an opportunity to keep fighting. I've been hit by some illegal moves in competition and was glad to have the opportunity to keep fighting since I was ok for them. If you're rocked by a kick to the balls it's normal to give some time for the fighter to recover. In most cases they do, in the case of Faircloth/Sakara he couldn't and it was a no contest - because it was unintentional, they can happen with inside thigh kicks. Frank's knee to the head was quite intentional, hence the DQ when Renzo couldn't continue.

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#321610 - 02/12/07 01:59 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It looked like at first they were going to give him the chance to go on. The ref signaled for a timeout but went and raised Frank's hand twenty seconds later. It was intentional, his comments before hand and afterwards makes that apparent. Sometimes theres accidents, no doubt, but after you've been warned and continue to do so anyway, then you deserve to lose, period.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321611 - 02/12/07 11:26 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Just like wrestling, once the promoters get hold of it... MMA will be like Wide-World Wrestling, and the soap operas between fighters will be just like all the other tripe that's involved with these venues.




there will always be a fundamental difference between 'sports entertainment' wrestling and MMA- that being the complicity of the fighters in the pre-arranged outcome of a fight.
In wrestling, the story lines are set by the management, then the wrestlers are charged with creating 'a work' that is both entertaining, and concludes with the decided victor coming out on top. some believe that these 'works' are pre choreographed, but the schedule and traveling does not allow this. All the wrestlers train together, and learn how to react/position themselves for one anothers trademark moves, and from there, it is made up as they go, in the ring, using short code at lulls in the performance (on the turnbuckle, on the floor, etc). It is very skillful in its own right, but its not a 'fight' per se.

MMA is a fight, and, as with boxing, the use of slow mo replay has pretty much made the risk of a fighter 'taking a dive' a slim one- fighters fight hard and for real, and are not complicit in any actions taken by judges, referees, or in the match making that is the promoters real tool for influencing the outcome of MMA competition. Most overt examples of this I can think of are that Crocop was given a donkey, and Rich franklin was 'protected' from having to face lindland through loopholes and politics.
neither of these scnarios were in the control of the fighters they favoured. One could argue that the winners credibility suffers from such 'help'. Hence Rampage being brought in for Lidell, as many could not see any valid oponents in the existing ranks for Chuck to make a good fight with (Jardine and Forrest are brave and popular enough, but do not have the tools at present IMO), and so Dana ran the risk of people losing interest in his No.1 'attraction', if given 'easy' oponents. In this way, a promoters influence works either way, dependant on the situation.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#321612 - 02/12/07 05:20 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

Well, pal, the first anybody heard of the Gracies in the general MA community was after that Yoshida match, so BS or not, it was their public "coming out party" and the movies of it are famous. Like I said, I don't personally follow MMA, and remember when Royce Gracie was only known as a Judo player.




This makes me wonder either what rock you have been hiding under or what agenda you are pushing. Kindly refrain from comments that have no purpose other than to take a veiled swipe at the Gracies. Your history of doing so is well documented here, uncalled for and unwelcome.

Quote:

I find it hilarious that you get the win by going to the hospital... maybe it's better to be the loser in that scenario. One of my good friends lost the world championship in karate by knocking out his opponent in 2.5 seconds of the first round for using "excessive contact". I'm betting he would have rather been the loser than remembered as the "champion who got knocked out" to win.

I always wonder how you have "excessive contact" or "illegal strikes" when you have an open rules forums like some of the MMA. I just watched the Shamrock-Gracie fight again, and it still looks like Gracie put himself in the position to get his brains knocked out.

While Gracie was "controlling the fight" from the top position, he was taking a beating from knee strikes into the ribs, and turned himself so his head was in the line of fire from Shamrock's knees. It's kind of like blocking a punch with your chin... and then blaming the guy for knocking you out. His "top position" looked more defensive to me than offensive, and he was still getting pounded.






Even funnier that the rules were agreed upon by fighters before hand. Rules that were insisted upon by Frank. You don't get to make your own rules and then break them and claim "Hey I thought I was in a fight. I'm old school."

Your observations and comments reveal how little you understand of the game in spite of your vast martial arts experience.

Carry on...
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#321613 - 02/13/07 12:16 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: Fletch1]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Fletch, I'm not hiding under a rock and I don't have an agenda... and I'll be glad to zip it about the Gracie legend. There are too many "true believers" out there.

As for the rules thing, if Shamrock agreed that knee strikes to the head were illegal, then he was rightly DQ'd. I don't have any missions built for any of the players involved. I personally thought the Silva fight was a better one.

As for me not knowing "the game", you might be surprised who and what I know. Just because we disagree on something doesn't make my observations invalid, and just because you have an opinion, it doesn't necessarily make it right either.

My observation of the match in question was that Renzo switched positions and put his head in the target zone for those knee strikes... and after seeing the match at least three times on Showtime, I still think that's what happened. He was getting hammered in the ribs and moved to get them out of the line of fire, and by doing so put his head there. If the knee strikes to the head were illegal, then they were illegal... but it's pretty clear to me that he basically did it to himself by changing position... but I seem to remember one of the other matches being won after a jumped knee strike to the head by one of the other players that was followed up by some punches. Why wasn't that one illegal?.. because they weren't in the clinch? Seems a little like splitting hairs to me.

Anyway, don't get pi$$ed at me. I told you up front I don't follow MMA. I just know what I saw... all three times.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321614 - 02/13/07 01:43 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It wasnt illegal because it was from a stand up position. Just like kicking to the head. You can do it standing, but not if the opponent is on the ground.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321615 - 02/13/07 03:16 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
There's nothing wrong with putting yourself in a position that exposes you to something that's illegal. Especially when your opponent was exposed to something illegal for the whole fight going up to it.

Considering how wide spread unified rules now are in the US, it would be worth the time for you to read up on them. They're not going to change much from event to event so you'll at least be dealing with a number of events you can watch and actually know the rules.

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#321616 - 02/13/07 06:38 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: migo]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Maybe it's just my self-defense DNA, but I don't want to expose myself to any kind of head kicks or strikes regardless of what the rules say. It's just good self-defense not to...

I fought a Marine recruit one time in our school, and the only punch he landed was one after time was called and I was walking off the floor with my back turned... so I've been there with "illegal strikes".

My take on that rule is that both fighters were "on the ground", so I don't see the difference in a standing kick to the head and one from the ground position. If the rule is that they're illegal on the ground, then, so be it... but it's a little inconsistent and a great advantage to the fighter on top.

One of my master instructors, Billy Hong, hated one of the kicks I used because he couldn't stop it, so when we did kumite, it suddenly became "an illegal kick". I started with a front kick and then spun sideways and did a hook kick off it, and I could nail him with it every time... so it was suddenly an "illegal move".

Makes me wonder who was getting beat to get this rule in place about knees to the head in groundwork? I'll bet that wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out...

If it didn't prove anything else, it shows the validity of the technique for self-defense. Wonder why they don't have a rule against sitting on the guy's chest and pummeling his head with punches? If they're protecting someone who's helpless, where's the thought process of that?

I was just commenting on what I saw, and didn't mean to get everybody's pants in a wad about it.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321617 - 02/13/07 10:33 AM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

Maybe it's just my self-defense DNA, but I don't want to expose myself to any kind of head kicks or strikes regardless of what the rules say. It's just good self-defense not to...




They were competing, not praticing self defense.


Quote:

My take on that rule is that both fighters were "on the ground", so I don't see the difference in a standing kick to the head and one from the ground position. If the rule is that they're illegal on the ground, then, so be it... but it's a little inconsistent and a great advantage to the fighter on top.




It's not a matter or standup or groundwork, it's a matter of where Shamrock kneed Gracie. In the back of the head/neck.

Stirking to the spine or the back of the head is a big no-no in most, if not all, MMA events. It doesn't matter if he makes himself open for those shots, they're also wide open for hair pulls, groin shots, eye gouges, and fishhooks. Should Shamrock have done those instead?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#321618 - 02/13/07 12:01 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: JoelM]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
JMHO, but if you're fighting full contact and not practicing self-defense, you're going to get hurt.

I've already said that if the knee strikes were "illegal" then Shamrock should have been DQ'ed. I do find it interesting that the thread I did on striking the thoracic spine had everybody saying it wasn't a viable target, but somehow it's an illegal strike in full contact MMA because of the damage it can cause. That is interesting...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#321619 - 02/13/07 08:36 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
WT said"I wonder why they dont have a rule about sitting on a guys chest and pummelling his head."

Well, when that happens, the guy doing the sitting beatdown is usually declared the winner. And its because of safety. The guy on the bottom isnt always ko'd, but the fight still gets called to protect his precious gray matter.

Other than that, the rule isnt designed to protect one fighter over another. The simple fact is, Renzo had the same opportunities Shamrock had to use moves that were deemed by both to be illegal and he chose not to. Shamrock chose a different path, and he lost, in more ways than one.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#321620 - 02/13/07 08:48 PM Re: Shamrock vs. Gracie Spoiler [Re: wristtwister]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

JMHO, but if you're fighting full contact and not practicing self-defense, you're going to get hurt.

I've already said that if the knee strikes were "illegal" then Shamrock should have been DQ'ed. I do find it interesting that the thread I did on striking the thoracic spine had everybody saying it wasn't a viable target, but somehow it's an illegal strike in full contact MMA because of the damage it can cause. That is interesting...






Something being illegal under US AC jurisdiction doesn't always correlate with how dangerous or effective it is. A lot of it has to do with the appearance of brutality, and how people from a boxing backrgound view it.

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