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#320780 - 02/06/07 09:43 PM
'Honto'?
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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'Honto' in Japanese means 'Truthfully' (also means 'main island' or 'proper' as in Okinawa Honto...or Okinawa proper/Okinawa main island). The common use for it that I've heard in speech, is similar to how English speakers use the word 'Really?' or 'Really.' - depending on inflection, it could be used as a statement or a question.
keeping that in mind, but in relation to kata...
I've just read someone's past post on another forum describe the Honto concept as the parts in a kata where things are usually symetrical, which are altered slightly to one side in order to capture alternative principles. In other words, the concept speaks to the question: since many kata principles are only shown on one side...why are some assumed to be showing both sides while others do not?
It's a valid question, and not a new concept...in some circles, it's assumed that principles don't repeat themselves. Except I hadn't heard the term 'honto' attached to it before. The concept (by another name) is also attached to the contrasting idea of 'demonstrative form' vs. 'study form'.
The irony (maybe the wrong word) of calling this concept 'honto', is that more often than not, the kata is passed down to people with symetry illustrated. Only later in study are alternatives to repeating sides altered slightly to illustrate variant principles...also more often than not, the alternatives are self-derrived. The 'truth'/'honto' of the alternative is local and relative to the person who derrives and/or studies it....it's not meant as a universal or absolute truth - not a 'passed down from generations ago' truth, that is. but personal truth or interpretation is still truth none-the-less if the person can use it for their intended purposes.
I saw the honto term referenced on Jim's (shoshikan) blog and was interested that although the concept has been around for a while, the term 'honto' used for it escaped me.
so, first to get semantics aside...is this a new kata buzzword? or has it been around for a while and maybe never picked up on teachers using it?
but the real meat of the conversation is in sharing views of the concept itself....
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#320781 - 02/06/07 10:31 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
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Ed, I have heard to of two seperate japanese words, Tatemae and Honne. Tateme is considered to be a public truth that may or may not actually be true. A kind of knod and a wink thing. Honne would refer to the actual truth that might not be shared or spoken about publicly so as not to lose face or challenge the status quo. Honne/Honto I do not know how similar the languages might be or if the words are at all related. You know like the difference between speaking American and Canadianese 
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#320782 - 02/06/07 11:17 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: oldman]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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you are right (as far as I know) ...Honne/Honto share root imi. also makes sense with the notion - show one thing, study another. Even if the concept is termed 'Honto' (or actually, if I remember right, I think it would be grammatically accurate in this case to use 'Honne') my reluctance to call it 'truth' or 'secrets' is that it implies a universal. where I believe 'interpretation' is a more accurate term. part of the interpretation is a host of assumptions that accompany the personal form. one of those assumptions can be that principles don't repeat. just semantics. since learning and trusting someone's assumptions and interpretation long enough will build our own universal truth that either works well for us or doesn't on an individual basis. heck, people don't even have common intentions for kata use. everyone has their own bubble of truth that intersects and merges with other truths...the biggest bubble and/or the bubble having a special name does not imply 'more truth'....not that I'm trying to burst any bubbles or anything. 
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#320783 - 02/06/07 11:37 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
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I should add that my comments were not specific to kata but a more general use of the terms. Not ever having been to japan I can't really speak to the broader or cultural context from experience. It seems to me that at least some of the confusion and misunderstandings between cultures and arts can be attributed to variences between what is a commonly accepted pubic story and a private and different understanding of events. It seems that culturally the japanese at least have been able to allow the divergent stories or martial histories/biographies to coexist. In your experience would you say that reflect your experience? Maybe it is the same as us, a sort of "go along to get along".
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#320784 - 02/07/07 12:52 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3120
Loc: East Coast, United States
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Hello Ed:  What would be physical examples of this idea as pertains to kata, symetry, etc.? (sic. preferably from a nice Okinawan kata  )  Jeff
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#320785 - 02/07/07 01:12 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: oldman]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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I was never really a tourist in Japan....although I was a foreigner (obviously). but since we lived with my wife's family, I experienced a few things 'from the inside, looking out'. Probably similar experience in cross-culture families - Socially, I felt there was a different 'face' people showed in a family setting compared to people in public assuming I was just a visitor. I felt much more comfortable at home than in public there. but some of that feeling is illusion, since of course a family setting will be more open and honest than a more restrained public face. The thing that magnifys and distorts that feeling in Japan in particular is the fact in general, it seems alot more socially composed (dare I say, almost repressive) in public than Americans. but that could be deceiving too, since it's just my perception of contrast between my 'norm' vs. their 'norm'. But that was at first....after a while, my perception gradually did a 180. I saw that people are just people after all under their particular cultural baggage - in Japan ...it's often only 3 or 4 shared saki bottles away from accessing it.  (tip: if drinking with Japanese folk...when they start ending every sentance with 'honto ni' or in Osaka dialect 'hongo ni' - believe them and try to remember what they tell you.) If you are detected in saying what they want to hear as oppossed to truth, expect something along the lines of: "O'seiji ja arimasen ka?" ("That's not lip service?") lol lies and truth have alot of sophisticated meanings that make up a large gray area. 'Honto'/'Honne' without context is deceptive to try and put meaning to it. something could be 'true' if it's a lie that serves the greater good. We have that expresion in western culture as well, but for some reason, when things are put into another language they become a bigger deal. My language is English...in regard to kata, some terms that don't have a 1-to-1 meaning is better to use my native language words after finding out exactly what the foreign term is, and is used for. In this case, 'interpreted' rather than 'Honto'. Unless, Jim was intending another meaning for Honto...which is all the more reason I'd like to hear other English interpretations. - but only secondary to discussing the concept of 'no repeating principles' itself. honto ni. 
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#320786 - 02/07/07 01:21 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ronin1966]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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Jeff, The concept itself is a generic one: 'assume that there are no repeating principles in any given form'.
specific examples? nah...it's the kind of 'go like this' stuff best in person with a good instructor.
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#320787 - 02/07/07 02:30 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
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Just a little something I have written on the subject, my thanks to Bill Hayes Sensei for opening my eyes to such things,
First we need to understand that the ‘old’ art of karate is passed to us via the classical kata, and within the kata lie the secrets……………………..
OK so what does ‘kata’ mean ?
“FORM” - VESSELS HOLDING THE ESSENCE OF THE
OKINAWAN MARTIAL ARTS.
Kata isn’t and shouldn’t be ‘exactly the same’ amongst karateka, we make it our own over time,
We achieve this by learning the ‘form’ of the kata and then training it, for a long time!
As an example, a karateka may at first learn a kata for combat, would that kata be ‘exactly’ the same as perhaps an older karateka who is training specifically for health benefits? Of course not, they may share very significant similarities but they would not be EXACTLY the same.
Another example is should a naturally very strong person work a kata ‘exactly’ the same as a very light, fast person? Would the kata work the same for them? I think not.
Once we have the ‘form’ we need to find the ‘essence’ within the kata, it’s key messages which is called the -
HONTO KATA - “TRUE FORM” (EACH MOVE ONCE ONLY).
Take a kata, any kata and step through it, discard ANY movement that is repeated. What movements you have left is the honto kata and this is the true message/essence of the kata. Practise it in a straight line as isolated techniques but keep the ‘angles’ of the direction of the technique in the kata. Imagine your attacker is nearly always coming in at you from the front or side or you at least have eye contact, and it’s nearly always only one attacker.
Movements are generally repeated in kata for a very simple reason, to practise on both sides and return you to the first rep’s position, hence the use of 3 repetitions.
This tool is extremely powerful and allows us to focus our study on the essence of the kata (a smaller number of techniques) and not the superficial ‘modernisms’ that make the kata nice and formal, and finish on the same spot!
Which leads us nicely to the story of the oranges,
THINK OF KATA AS CARRYING ORANGES, A BURDON !
We all know and accept that Oranges are good for us, so count up your kata and think of them as independent big oranges – how many have you got?
Most of us have several, some dozens………..
Think of having to carry all those oranges with no bags, in your hands everywhere you go, no putting them in pockets either!
The more you have the more you have to cause you problems in every day life! Try and defend yourself carrying all those oranges……..
Oranges aren’t much good really, but Orange Juice certainly is!
Now think of squeezing the juice out (Honto Kata), mixing it all up and drinking it down, not only are you getting the benefit of the kata but you are also free of the katas ‘form’ for effective application…
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#320788 - 02/07/07 07:22 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: shoshinkan]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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Just curious if you know which publication of B. Hayes' mentions the term 'honto kata' ? "Kata isn’t and shouldn’t be ‘exactly the same’ amongst karateka, we make it our own over time" I agree. It's accurately called 'interpretation' or 'personal truth'. "Take a kata, any kata and step through it, discard ANY movement that is repeated. What movements you have left is the honto kata and this is the true message/essence of the kata." hmmm...discarding repeating sequences seems wasteful and no closer to adding understanding than with the original form on both sides. Current study with Hopkins Sensei has opened my eyes to a different truth with the same concept, 'no repeating principles'. Except without trimming and he didn't make a Japanese-sounding buzzword for it....or maybe he has...I'll ask him. Also, for ref: Quote:
article: "The lost secrets of Okinawan Goju-ryu: What the kata shows," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 11, #4, 2002.
article: "The shape of kata: The enigma of pattern," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 13, #1, 2003.
article: "The teaching of Goju-ryu kata: A brief look at methodology and practice," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 14, #2, 2005.
you can get them here:
http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/issues.html
I don't get the oranges analogy. by taking out repeating sections of kata, you end up with smaller oranges and therefore less 'juice'.
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#320789 - 02/07/07 11:02 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Member
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
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Quote:
Just curious if you know which publication of B. Hayes' mentions the term 'honto kata' ?
"Kata isn’t and shouldn’t be ‘exactly the same’ amongst karateka, we make it our own over time"
I agree. It's accurately called 'interpretation' or 'personal truth'.
"Take a kata, any kata and step through it, discard ANY movement that is repeated. What movements you have left is the honto kata and this is the true message/essence of the kata."
hmmm...discarding repeating sequences seems wasteful and no closer to adding understanding than with the original form on both sides. Current study with Hopkins Sensei has opened my eyes to a different truth with the same concept, 'no repeating principles'. Except without trimming and he didn't make a Japanese-sounding buzzword for it....or maybe he has...I'll ask him.
Also, for ref:
Quote:
article: "The lost secrets of Okinawan Goju-ryu: What the kata shows," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 11, #4, 2002.
article: "The shape of kata: The enigma of pattern," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 13, #1, 2003.
article: "The teaching of Goju-ryu kata: A brief look at methodology and practice," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 14, #2, 2005.
you can get them here:
http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/issues.html
I don't get the oranges analogy. by taking out repeating sections of kata, you end up with smaller oranges and therefore less 'juice'.
Beyond Jim's explanantion the "honto" version of kata can be thought of as the more realistic form of it. For instance instead of doing three shuto in succession in a methodical, deliberate manner (as is seen in Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan), you may choose to change up the timing. The first knifehand may be slow and the next two executed in rapid succession with a change in tempo- "slow, fast, fast". I don't know if I agree with the statement that repetitive movements are meant to train muscle and mind memory exclusively. Sometimes the multiple repeating moves are follow-throughs for throws or combos. More proof that "ikken hisatsu" is a Japanese Budo idea not a Ryukyuan one. Their term is "uchichiesu", which has a much deeper connotation.
No two practitoners will ever do the kata exactly the same. Body-types and abilities sometimes dictate how an individual can train his/her kata in the most efficacious and efficient manner. This is especially true when we extract exact bunkai from a specific movement. This does not mean that we need to change the fundamental platform and techniques, e.g the form and waza, just adapt the principles to your body. For example you may need to extend a locking tech more to the midline if you are a slight person versus less dramatically (at a less acute angle) if you're a big person. A good example of this is the tuidi movement seen in Naihanchi Nidan/Tekki Nidan where an apparent reverse elbow strike and/or arm bar is reinforced by the other hand which presses against the back of the other fist as the elbow comes forward. The explanation above shows how a "bulkier" person may use their bulk to help sink in the lock whereas a thin person may have to emphasize the movement a bit more by moving the augmented fist closer to ones center and bringing your elbow more forward.
My understanding of the term is a little differnt than what's been posted so far. I guess it can be translated as the "truthful form", or the form which is your truth or your understanding- like Ed said.
I still believe that you keep the purity of your style's kata intact as much as possible. The ancillary training methods such as ippon kumite, sanbon kumite, partner drills/sets, oyo/kihon bunkai study and honto kata augment your traditional kata training, they don't circumvent the lessons which are gleaned from repetitive kata study. Honto Kata training is something that higher ranked individuals may partake in. In Shorinkan, Matsubayashi and Matsumura Seito it rarely is ever talked about let alone utilized.
Bill Hayes Sensei and my Seito sensei are very good friends. Hayes Sensei is a Shobayashi practitioner of the highest caliber. I think that Jim attended a seminar of his not too long ago. That guy definitely knows his brand of Shorin Ryu karate.
Edited by Unsu (02/07/07 11:11 AM)
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#320790 - 02/07/07 11:57 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Unsu]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
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Quote:
In Shorinkan, Matsubayashi and Matsumura Seito it rarely is ever talked about let alone utilized.
Actually the kata execution you speak of is what we in some Matsubayashi circles refer to as combat timing. My teacher only teaches kata with an Ichi...Ni...San...etc. count to kyu ranks and simple warm up or short review for yudansha. Beyond that we adjust the timing depending on what principle from kata we are studying and then apply it in two man drills. Actually we have found that such an adjustment in timing is a good way for the body to sync with the mind when training solo as it helps ingrain bunkai practiced with a partner when each bunkai is associated with a different combat timing. Actually Ota teaches a similar method of timing, however, he only teaches striking and distancing and rarely any grappling apps. Didn't he show you this when you trained with him Unsu?
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#320791 - 02/07/07 12:36 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: medulanet]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
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Pretty interesting stuff. Why dont all styles use some sort of streamlined kata like this?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu
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#320792 - 02/07/07 12:40 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: shoshinkan]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3120
Loc: East Coast, United States
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Hello Shoshinkan: How do you like your juice... pulp, no pulp, ice, no ice, little glass, huge bucket, seeds... Interesting analogy... Jeff
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#320793 - 02/07/07 12:46 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3120
Loc: East Coast, United States
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Hello Ed: <<discarding repeating sequences seems wasteful and no closer to adding understanding than with the original form on both sides. Perhaps that idea is to avoid the "repetition" in order to start with the mechanics. ie Once only can be dissected sufficently?  Jeff
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#320794 - 02/07/07 01:32 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
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Just to be clear I was fortunate enough to spend a week with Bill Hayes Sensei and we remain in contact, he is a very good karateka and a great man, I consider him a good friend.
He opened my eyes to many things, which I continue to research and practise, however he is not my Sensei. Hayes Sensei does have a book which talks about many of these things, I shall pm details Ed.
I have to be quick, but nothing of the 'kata' is discarded,
Honto is just a focus on specific waza to extract principles - katas are big, complicated animals, honto allows us to reduce the study to get the point,the essence.
and work it..............
Once that is done we can then look at the combinations in kata and all that jazz...............
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#320795 - 02/07/07 02:02 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: shoshinkan]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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Quote:
Honto is just a focus on specific waza to extract principles - katas are big, complicated animals, honto allows us to reduce the study to get the point,the essence.
Once that is done we can then look at the combinations in kata and all that jazz
ahh...thats something different than you mentioned before:
Quote:
Take a kata, any kata and step through it, discard ANY movement that is repeated. What movements you have left is the honto kata and this is the true message/essence of the kata.
extracting principles for 2-person sets is the process some refer to as 'oyo' (or some call it 'bunkai'). never heard it called 'honto' before...live and learn.
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#320796 - 02/07/07 05:31 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
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not right or wrong but heres my take on some terms -
Kata - form of karate, delivery of the art
honto - truth/reality of kata
bunkai - exact interpretation of kata techniques
oyo - personal expression/application of principles identified/practised from honto and bunkai
please remembver Ed I tend to write what I think at any moment, none of this stuff is set in stone as my understanding changes all the time, these descriptions act as a guide for me to understand a foreign art,
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#320797 - 02/07/07 06:17 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: shoshinkan]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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I'm still learning too. I never even heard of the term 'bunkai' until a few years ago....nevermind 'oyo'. We never used terms for concepts...we just did them (or in many cases, didn't).
I'm only trying to first, match up the training method to the term (so I'm on the same page as everyone-or at least know where others are coming from), then have a discussion about it. I'm not trying to put people on the spot, I just figured since you are teaching a workshop/seminar on 'honto kata concepts', I wanted to find out what those concepts are exactly...just out of curiosity mostly, I'm not expecting it changes anything I study. I've already got a full plate!
so Jim, this isn't disrespect or calling things out...just learning as you say.
using logic here:
when analyzing kata to extract principles ('bunkai') - there is no need to view both sides with the same analysis.
however, applying those principles in 2-person sets (oyo), I think, it makes sense to work both sides (but some people would say it's not necessary).
taking kata and removing the repeating sides, then analyzing it, is the same process of 'bunkai' study.
The personal interpretation to extract those principles (based on assumptions) is what I would view 'Honto' as.
Is that a fair understanding?
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#320798 - 02/07/07 06:35 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: shoshinkan]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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btw, I still don't refer to these terms in practice - the only place where terms seem to come into useful play is in reading and communicating about their concepts. ...in many ways, since reading the forums and published material over the past year or so, I'm learning the lingo for things that are and have been inherent in study but just not termed.
many don't involve themselves with printed supplimentary study since how do you communicate 'go like this' ? They have a valid argument for not wanting to think of concepts in terms....and maybe I'll eventually come to that conclusion too...but until then, I try.
what I'm finding is concepts are easily misunderstood if only read about and not shown. many still use the term 'bunkai' to mean application. when in fact the kanji means 'analysis'. confusing.
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#320799 - 02/08/07 01:16 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Member
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
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Ed:
"Bunkai" whether the apparent/simple type (bunkai kihon) or advanced/personal (bunkai oyo) does refer to "analysis". The term "interpretation" is not entirely correct.
"Honto" Kata are not meant for the analysis of certain waza. They are used to make the kata more understandable for the practitioner. They aren't a replacement for bunkai. It is a separate training tool. It is not commonly seen because it is an additional training device IMO.
If you look at good kata training- honto, "promise" or otherwise- in a good old school style which can include Okinawan, Japanese or even Korean variants you will see that an emphasis on exactness in technique is there especially at the beginning. As time passes the practitioner will evolve from hardness, to hard-soft and then relaxed power with conservation of energy/movement. I think this is what Honto kata are aiming for. A logical way to interpret the waza in a personal, relaxed and efficient manner.
Med':
What you are speaking of and what Honto Kata training is are a little different. Honto Kata are also your interpretation of the original kata lessons done in a way that makes sense to you. Sometimes, as Jim said, movements are excluded, sometimes the timing is changed or the position of a block or strike is altered. It's about more than maai or timing. I was just giving an example earlier.
I liked Ota's karate. He was not bad at all. The dojo I was training at didn't know a damned thing about anything unless someone like Ota, Nagamine or even my current sensei showed up to teach a seminar. None of them ever spoke of the honto form of kata. EVER. Peace.
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#320800 - 02/08/07 07:50 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Unsu]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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I think you confused my definitions with Jim's. bunkai=analysis via assumptions, oyo=application via principles, honto=interpretation via principles... is what I was suggesting consitantly throughout. If anything, this thread might illustrate that terms themselves are subject to interpretation ('honto no honto'? lol) - which begs the question, why use them at all? or at the very least, remove the layer of abstraction by using English concept terms. perhaps even better yet, we just explain what we do in plain english without jargon or generalities to hide behind....or not. silence provides for good cover too. I don't exclude myself from that tactic either - hey! in a thread titled 'honto' how could I lie with good conscious!
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#320801 - 02/08/07 08:02 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
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Ever a fan of English I must raise a point, wasn't Honto, Tonto's younger brother?
_________________________
victor smith
bushi no te isshinryu
offering free instruction for 30 years
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#320802 - 02/08/07 04:02 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Member
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
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Quote:
I think you confused my definitions with Jim's.
bunkai=analysis via assumptions, oyo=application via principles, honto=interpretation via principles... is what I was suggesting consitantly throughout.
If anything, this thread might illustrate that terms themselves are subject to interpretation ('honto no honto'? lol) - which begs the question, why use them at all? or at the very least, remove the layer of abstraction by using English concept terms. perhaps even better yet, we just explain what we do in plain english without jargon or generalities to hide behind....or not. silence provides for good cover too. I don't exclude myself from that tactic either - hey! in a thread titled 'honto' how could I lie with good conscious!
I wouldn't use the "assumption" word. Maybe something like the methodical analysis of a kata movement using ones knowledge of the waza and fighting.
Certain styles do use specific applications to define a kata movement. These are usually seen in partner sets.
In 2-person drills or Yakusoku kumite one can practice kotekitai, change-body and a general application of a defined technique. Beyond bunkai which is a controlled and deliberate analysis and application there is the true term one uses to define proper application in real-time against a compliant OR resisting opponent. I know you don't want to hear this (another foreign term), but it is very important to the karate you now train in. This concept of using realistic motions as they apply to the movement of the hand/arm, foot/leg and body is called "ti-chi-ki".
Sorry to throw that one out there, but I thought that you guys already understood that this was the real "bunkai" term of Okinawan karate. Especially Victor.
Victor is right to reiterate over and over that the word bunkai is something he didn't hear while training Isshin Ryu or another Okinawan style. Any good Okinawan style teacher or system will present you with these concepts and they are integral to your training. If you don't know them or don't want to use or understand them then that is your choice. In that instance you would probably be straying from TOMAs training and more towards the Gendai Budo or Americanized way of doing things. I tend to use terms like "karate-ka" and "bunkai" because the average karate person knows these terms. I tend not to use terms like "nami-tsuriyose" or "umuiri" because most folks would be like "huh?". When I did teach I didn't go around just throwing unfamiliar Hogen terms at the students, but I did give them something to signify themselves as Okinawan karate practitioners. I would explain the subtlelties between a Japanese karate term and a Ryukyuan one. There are nuances that are not completely translatable, just like with any other language. I used English, Japanese and Hogen terms.
You are right to say we should be espeaking 'Murkin so as not to make it too murky. Lindsey Sensei just does the damned thing and sometimes he'd tell you what the Okinawan or Japanese would call this or that waza.
I love the Okinawan culture and MAs thing so I give respect where respect is due. Plus it helps to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is vital if you are to understand Okinawan karate with some depth. It is vital in ones journey to become a "debushi". Wanna be confused some mo'?
TI-CHI-KI is the word you guys are looking for to describe the real use of ones body in Okinawan self-preservation/life-protection whatever you wanna call it...
What can you super karate guys learn us today?
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#320803 - 02/08/07 04:17 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Unsu]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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hmmm...thanks Bryan. What do you think, Jim? will you two just agree with each other from being in the same org, or will we get to read what you really think?
lol...just bustin' em.
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#320804 - 02/09/07 01:44 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
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Hey guys,
well I think we have all given our point of view on terms that are very difficult to be accurate with, I don't think we will all agree on 'right' or 'wrong' on this, thats hardly the point.
Bryan talks about ti-chi-ki,
it was explained to me that this is the concept of using realistic motions as they apply to the movement of the hand/arm, foot/leg and body in Okinawan karate.
For me the term oyo is much the same, as with all things there is cross over between cultures and thats difficult to nail down,
strictly speaking I should only use Okinawan Hogen to describe my karate but I have many years of Japanese karate and terms drilled into me, its not a perfect world.
Ed's right the value of these things for practical karate is not good (I should just use englsh), however I like to maintain some Japanese/Okinawan Hogen as I link my karate to Okinawa (now part of modern Japan),
Particulary in a historical/respectful sense, the culture of old Okinawa has great interest to me and I feel brings great benefit to my students.
I like the strange terms, trying to understand them better and all that goes with it personally, I also like just training.........
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#320805 - 02/09/07 04:57 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Unsu]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
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Bryan,
Yes I made a tastess joke, but I don't focus on Okinawan or Japanese terminology.
All of the instructors and arts I've studied just have used English, and a lot of non-verbal communication.
I tend to keep the same path.
pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith
bushi no te isshinryu
offering free instruction for 30 years
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