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#320800 - 02/08/07 07:50 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Unsu]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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I think you confused my definitions with Jim's. bunkai=analysis via assumptions, oyo=application via principles, honto=interpretation via principles... is what I was suggesting consitantly throughout. If anything, this thread might illustrate that terms themselves are subject to interpretation ('honto no honto'? lol) - which begs the question, why use them at all? or at the very least, remove the layer of abstraction by using English concept terms. perhaps even better yet, we just explain what we do in plain english without jargon or generalities to hide behind....or not. silence provides for good cover too. I don't exclude myself from that tactic either - hey! in a thread titled 'honto' how could I lie with good conscious! 
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#320801 - 02/08/07 08:02 AM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
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Ever a fan of English I must raise a point, wasn't Honto, Tonto's younger brother?
_________________________
victor smith
bushi no te isshinryu
offering free instruction for 30 years
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#320802 - 02/08/07 04:02 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Member
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
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Quote:
I think you confused my definitions with Jim's.
bunkai=analysis via assumptions, oyo=application via principles, honto=interpretation via principles... is what I was suggesting consitantly throughout.
If anything, this thread might illustrate that terms themselves are subject to interpretation ('honto no honto'? lol) - which begs the question, why use them at all? or at the very least, remove the layer of abstraction by using English concept terms. perhaps even better yet, we just explain what we do in plain english without jargon or generalities to hide behind....or not. silence provides for good cover too. I don't exclude myself from that tactic either - hey! in a thread titled 'honto' how could I lie with good conscious!
I wouldn't use the "assumption" word. Maybe something like the methodical analysis of a kata movement using ones knowledge of the waza and fighting.
Certain styles do use specific applications to define a kata movement. These are usually seen in partner sets.
In 2-person drills or Yakusoku kumite one can practice kotekitai, change-body and a general application of a defined technique. Beyond bunkai which is a controlled and deliberate analysis and application there is the true term one uses to define proper application in real-time against a compliant OR resisting opponent. I know you don't want to hear this (another foreign term), but it is very important to the karate you now train in. This concept of using realistic motions as they apply to the movement of the hand/arm, foot/leg and body is called "ti-chi-ki".
Sorry to throw that one out there, but I thought that you guys already understood that this was the real "bunkai" term of Okinawan karate. Especially Victor.
Victor is right to reiterate over and over that the word bunkai is something he didn't hear while training Isshin Ryu or another Okinawan style. Any good Okinawan style teacher or system will present you with these concepts and they are integral to your training. If you don't know them or don't want to use or understand them then that is your choice. In that instance you would probably be straying from TOMAs training and more towards the Gendai Budo or Americanized way of doing things. I tend to use terms like "karate-ka" and "bunkai" because the average karate person knows these terms. I tend not to use terms like "nami-tsuriyose" or "umuiri" because most folks would be like "huh?". When I did teach I didn't go around just throwing unfamiliar Hogen terms at the students, but I did give them something to signify themselves as Okinawan karate practitioners. I would explain the subtlelties between a Japanese karate term and a Ryukyuan one. There are nuances that are not completely translatable, just like with any other language. I used English, Japanese and Hogen terms.
You are right to say we should be espeaking 'Murkin so as not to make it too murky. Lindsey Sensei just does the damned thing and sometimes he'd tell you what the Okinawan or Japanese would call this or that waza.
I love the Okinawan culture and MAs thing so I give respect where respect is due. Plus it helps to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is vital if you are to understand Okinawan karate with some depth. It is vital in ones journey to become a "debushi". Wanna be confused some mo'?
TI-CHI-KI is the word you guys are looking for to describe the real use of ones body in Okinawan self-preservation/life-protection whatever you wanna call it...
What can you super karate guys learn us today?
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#320803 - 02/08/07 04:17 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Unsu]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
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hmmm...thanks Bryan. What do you think, Jim? will you two just agree with each other from being in the same org, or will we get to read what you really think?
lol...just bustin' em.
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#320804 - 02/09/07 01:44 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
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Hey guys,
well I think we have all given our point of view on terms that are very difficult to be accurate with, I don't think we will all agree on 'right' or 'wrong' on this, thats hardly the point.
Bryan talks about ti-chi-ki,
it was explained to me that this is the concept of using realistic motions as they apply to the movement of the hand/arm, foot/leg and body in Okinawan karate.
For me the term oyo is much the same, as with all things there is cross over between cultures and thats difficult to nail down,
strictly speaking I should only use Okinawan Hogen to describe my karate but I have many years of Japanese karate and terms drilled into me, its not a perfect world.
Ed's right the value of these things for practical karate is not good (I should just use englsh), however I like to maintain some Japanese/Okinawan Hogen as I link my karate to Okinawa (now part of modern Japan),
Particulary in a historical/respectful sense, the culture of old Okinawa has great interest to me and I feel brings great benefit to my students.
I like the strange terms, trying to understand them better and all that goes with it personally, I also like just training.........
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#320805 - 02/09/07 04:57 PM
Re: 'Honto'?
[Re: Unsu]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
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Bryan,
Yes I made a tastess joke, but I don't focus on Okinawan or Japanese terminology.
All of the instructors and arts I've studied just have used English, and a lot of non-verbal communication.
I tend to keep the same path.
pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith
bushi no te isshinryu
offering free instruction for 30 years
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