Pretty interesting stuff. Why dont all styles use some sort of streamlined kata like this?

Hello Shoshinkan:



How do you like your juice... pulp, no pulp, ice, no ice, little glass, huge bucket, seeds...

Interesting analogy...
Jeff

Hello Ed:

<<discarding repeating sequences seems wasteful and no closer to adding understanding than with the original form on both sides.

Perhaps that idea is to avoid the "repetition" in order to start with the mechanics. ie Once only can be dissected sufficently?



Jeff

Just to be clear I was fortunate enough to spend a week with Bill Hayes Sensei and we remain in contact, he is a very good karateka and a great man, I consider him a good friend.

He opened my eyes to many things, which I continue to research and practise, however he is not my Sensei. Hayes Sensei does have a book which talks about many of these things, I shall pm details Ed.

I have to be quick, but nothing of the 'kata' is discarded,

Honto is just a focus on specific waza to extract principles - katas are big, complicated animals, honto allows us to reduce the study to get the point,the essence.

and work it..............

Once that is done we can then look at the combinations in kata and all that jazz...............

not right or wrong but heres my take on some terms -


Kata - form of karate, delivery of the art

honto - truth/reality of kata

bunkai - exact interpretation of kata techniques

oyo - personal expression/application of principles identified/practised from honto and bunkai

please remembver Ed I tend to write what I think at any moment, none of this stuff is set in stone as my understanding changes all the time, these descriptions act as a guide for me to understand a foreign art,

I'm still learning too. I never even heard of the term 'bunkai' until a few years ago....nevermind 'oyo'. We never used terms for concepts...we just did them (or in many cases, didn't).

I'm only trying to first, match up the training method to the term (so I'm on the same page as everyone-or at least know where others are coming from), then have a discussion about it. I'm not trying to put people on the spot, I just figured since you are teaching a workshop/seminar on 'honto kata concepts', I wanted to find out what those concepts are exactly...just out of curiosity mostly, I'm not expecting it changes anything I study. I've already got a full plate!

so Jim, this isn't disrespect or calling things out...just learning as you say.


using logic here:

when analyzing kata to extract principles ('bunkai') - there is no need to view both sides with the same analysis.

however, applying those principles in 2-person sets (oyo), I think, it makes sense to work both sides (but some people would say it's not necessary).

taking kata and removing the repeating sides, then analyzing it, is the same process of 'bunkai' study.

The personal interpretation to extract those principles (based on assumptions) is what I would view 'Honto' as.

Is that a fair understanding?

btw, I still don't refer to these terms in practice - the only place where terms seem to come into useful play is in reading and communicating about their concepts. ...in many ways, since reading the forums and published material over the past year or so, I'm learning the lingo for things that are and have been inherent in study but just not termed.

many don't involve themselves with printed supplimentary study since how do you communicate 'go like this' ? They have a valid argument for not wanting to think of concepts in terms....and maybe I'll eventually come to that conclusion too...but until then, I try.

what I'm finding is concepts are easily misunderstood if only read about and not shown. many still use the term 'bunkai' to mean application. when in fact the kanji means 'analysis'. confusing.

Ed:

"Bunkai" whether the apparent/simple type (bunkai kihon) or advanced/personal (bunkai oyo) does refer to "analysis". The term "interpretation" is not entirely correct.

"Honto" Kata are not meant for the analysis of certain waza. They are used to make the kata more understandable for the practitioner. They aren't a replacement for bunkai. It is a separate training tool. It is not commonly seen because it is an additional training device IMO.

If you look at good kata training- honto, "promise" or otherwise- in a good old school style which can include Okinawan, Japanese or even Korean variants you will see that an emphasis on exactness in technique is there especially at the beginning. As time passes the practitioner will evolve from hardness, to hard-soft and then relaxed power with conservation of energy/movement. I think this is what Honto kata are aiming for. A logical way to interpret the waza in a personal, relaxed and efficient manner.

Med':

What you are speaking of and what Honto Kata training is are a little different. Honto Kata are also your interpretation of the original kata lessons done in a way that makes sense to you. Sometimes, as Jim said, movements are excluded, sometimes the timing is changed or the position of a block or strike is altered. It's about more than maai or timing. I was just giving an example earlier.

I liked Ota's karate. He was not bad at all. The dojo I was training at didn't know a damned thing about anything unless someone like Ota, Nagamine or even my current sensei showed up to teach a seminar. None of them ever spoke of the honto form of kata. EVER. Peace.