'Honto' in Japanese means 'Truthfully' (also means 'main island' or 'proper' as in Okinawa Honto...or Okinawa proper/Okinawa main island). The common use for it that I've heard in speech, is similar to how English speakers use the word 'Really?' or 'Really.' - depending on inflection, it could be used as a statement or a question.

keeping that in mind, but in relation to kata...
I've just read someone's past post on another forum describe the Honto concept as the parts in a kata where things are usually symetrical, which are altered slightly to one side in order to capture alternative principles. In other words, the concept speaks to the question: since many kata principles are only shown on one side...why are some assumed to be showing both sides while others do not?

It's a valid question, and not a new concept...in some circles, it's assumed that principles don't repeat themselves. Except I hadn't heard the term 'honto' attached to it before. The concept (by another name) is also attached to the contrasting idea of 'demonstrative form' vs. 'study form'.

The irony (maybe the wrong word) of calling this concept 'honto', is that more often than not, the kata is passed down to people with symetry illustrated. Only later in study are alternatives to repeating sides altered slightly to illustrate variant principles...also more often than not, the alternatives are self-derrived. The 'truth'/'honto' of the alternative is local and relative to the person who derrives and/or studies it....it's not meant as a universal or absolute truth - not a 'passed down from generations ago' truth, that is. but personal truth or interpretation is still truth none-the-less if the person can use it for their intended purposes.

I saw the honto term referenced on Jim's (shoshikan) blog and was interested that although the concept has been around for a while, the term 'honto' used for it escaped me.

so, first to get semantics aside...is this a new kata buzzword? or has it been around for a while and maybe never picked up on teachers using it?

but the real meat of the conversation is in sharing views of the concept itself....

Ed,
I have heard to of two seperate japanese words, Tatemae and Honne. Tateme is considered to be a public truth that may or may not actually be true. A kind of knod and a wink thing. Honne would refer to the actual truth that might not be shared or spoken about publicly so as not to lose face or challenge the status quo.

Honne/Honto I do not know how similar the languages might be or if the words are at all related. You know like the difference between speaking American and Canadianese

you are right (as far as I know) ...Honne/Honto share root imi. also makes sense with the notion - show one thing, study another.

Even if the concept is termed 'Honto' (or actually, if I remember right, I think it would be grammatically accurate in this case to use 'Honne') my reluctance to call it 'truth' or 'secrets' is that it implies a universal. where I believe 'interpretation' is a more accurate term. part of the interpretation is a host of assumptions that accompany the personal form. one of those assumptions can be that principles don't repeat.

just semantics. since learning and trusting someone's assumptions and interpretation long enough will build our own universal truth that either works well for us or doesn't on an individual basis. heck, people don't even have common intentions for kata use.

everyone has their own bubble of truth that intersects and merges with other truths...the biggest bubble and/or the bubble having a special name does not imply 'more truth'....not that I'm trying to burst any bubbles or anything.

I should add that my comments were not specific to kata but a more general use of the terms. Not ever having been to japan I can't really speak to the broader or cultural context from experience. It seems to me that at least some of the confusion and misunderstandings between cultures and arts can be attributed to variences between what is a commonly accepted pubic story and a private and different understanding of events. It seems that culturally the japanese at least have been able to allow the divergent stories or martial histories/biographies to coexist. In your experience would you say that reflect your experience? Maybe it is the same as us, a sort of "go along to get along".

Hello Ed:



What would be physical examples of this idea as pertains to kata, symetry, etc.? (sic. preferably from a nice Okinawan kata )


Jeff

I was never really a tourist in Japan....although I was a foreigner (obviously). but since we lived with my wife's family, I experienced a few things 'from the inside, looking out'. Probably similar experience in cross-culture families - Socially, I felt there was a different 'face' people showed in a family setting compared to people in public assuming I was just a visitor. I felt much more comfortable at home than in public there.

but some of that feeling is illusion, since of course a family setting will be more open and honest than a more restrained public face. The thing that magnifys and distorts that feeling in Japan in particular is the fact in general, it seems alot more socially composed (dare I say, almost repressive) in public than Americans. but that could be deceiving too, since it's just my perception of contrast between my 'norm' vs. their 'norm'.

But that was at first....after a while, my perception gradually did a 180. I saw that people are just people after all under their particular cultural baggage - in Japan ...it's often only 3 or 4 shared saki bottles away from accessing it.

(tip: if drinking with Japanese folk...when they start ending every sentance with 'honto ni' or in Osaka dialect 'hongo ni' - believe them and try to remember what they tell you.)

If you are detected in saying what they want to hear as oppossed to truth, expect something along the lines of: "O'seiji ja arimasen ka?" ("That's not lip service?") lol

lies and truth have alot of sophisticated meanings that make up a large gray area. 'Honto'/'Honne' without context is deceptive to try and put meaning to it. something could be 'true' if it's a lie that serves the greater good. We have that expresion in western culture as well, but for some reason, when things are put into another language they become a bigger deal.

My language is English...in regard to kata, some terms that don't have a 1-to-1 meaning is better to use my native language words after finding out exactly what the foreign term is, and is used for. In this case, 'interpreted' rather than 'Honto'.

Unless, Jim was intending another meaning for Honto...which is all the more reason I'd like to hear other English interpretations. - but only secondary to discussing the concept of 'no repeating principles' itself.

honto ni.

Jeff, The concept itself is a generic one: 'assume that there are no repeating principles in any given form'.

specific examples? nah...it's the kind of 'go like this' stuff best in person with a good instructor.

Just a little something I have written on the subject, my thanks to Bill Hayes Sensei for opening my eyes to such things,

First we need to understand that the ‘old’ art of karate is passed to us via the classical kata, and within the kata lie the secrets……………………..


OK so what does ‘kata’ mean ?

“FORM” - VESSELS HOLDING THE ESSENCE OF THE
OKINAWAN MARTIAL ARTS.

Kata isn’t and shouldn’t be ‘exactly the same’ amongst karateka, we make it our own over time,

We achieve this by learning the ‘form’ of the kata and then training it, for a long time!

As an example, a karateka may at first learn a kata for combat, would that kata be ‘exactly’ the same as perhaps an older karateka who is training specifically for health benefits? Of course not, they may share very significant similarities but they would not be EXACTLY the same.

Another example is should a naturally very strong person work a kata ‘exactly’ the same as a very light, fast person? Would the kata work the same for them? I think not.

Once we have the ‘form’ we need to find the ‘essence’ within the kata, it’s key messages which is called the -



HONTO KATA - “TRUE FORM” (EACH MOVE ONCE ONLY).

Take a kata, any kata and step through it, discard ANY movement that is repeated. What movements you have left is the honto kata and this is the true message/essence of the kata. Practise it in a straight line as isolated techniques but keep the ‘angles’ of the direction of the technique in the kata. Imagine your attacker is nearly always coming in at you from the front or side or you at least have eye contact, and it’s nearly always only one attacker.

Movements are generally repeated in kata for a very simple reason, to practise on both sides and return you to the first rep’s position, hence the use of 3 repetitions.

This tool is extremely powerful and allows us to focus our study on the essence of the kata (a smaller number of techniques) and not the superficial ‘modernisms’ that make the kata nice and formal, and finish on the same spot!

Which leads us nicely to the story of the oranges,

THINK OF KATA AS CARRYING ORANGES, A BURDON !

We all know and accept that Oranges are good for us, so count up your kata and think of them as independent big oranges – how many have you got?

Most of us have several, some dozens………..

Think of having to carry all those oranges with no bags, in your hands everywhere you go, no putting them in pockets either!

The more you have the more you have to cause you problems in every day life! Try and defend yourself carrying all those oranges……..


Oranges aren’t much good really, but Orange Juice certainly is!


Now think of squeezing the juice out (Honto Kata), mixing it all up and drinking it down, not only are you getting the benefit of the kata but you are also free of the katas ‘form’ for effective application…

Just curious if you know which publication of B. Hayes' mentions the term 'honto kata' ?

"Kata isn’t and shouldn’t be ‘exactly the same’ amongst karateka, we make it our own over time"

I agree. It's accurately called 'interpretation' or 'personal truth'.



"Take a kata, any kata and step through it, discard ANY movement that is repeated. What movements you have left is the honto kata and this is the true message/essence of the kata."

hmmm...discarding repeating sequences seems wasteful and no closer to adding understanding than with the original form on both sides. Current study with Hopkins Sensei has opened my eyes to a different truth with the same concept, 'no repeating principles'. Except without trimming and he didn't make a Japanese-sounding buzzword for it....or maybe he has...I'll ask him.

Also, for ref:

Quote:

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article: "The lost secrets of Okinawan Goju-ryu: What the kata shows," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 11, #4, 2002.

article: "The shape of kata: The enigma of pattern," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 13, #1, 2003.

article: "The teaching of Goju-ryu kata: A brief look at methodology and practice," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 14, #2, 2005.

you can get them here:
http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/issues.html

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I don't get the oranges analogy. by taking out repeating sections of kata, you end up with smaller oranges and therefore less 'juice'.