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#320468 - 02/07/07 08:08 AM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: ashe_higgs]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:


complete traditional systems should have basic exercises (jibengong, which may or may not include nei and qigong, gong li (conditioning exercises), tui/rou shou (pushing or spinning hands) qi shou (sticky hands) and san da (free fighting) some systems also have two man sets.




I couldn't agree more Ashe. I had done tremendous amounts of forms before I started doing bagua and I can attest to the importance of having a system that has more than just forms. I know for a fact that is what makes things work. You need to have skill sets that train specific skills and you need to be able to work with others in a cooperative manner to practice and feel how they are applied. Then you need to transition to a point were you are receiving less and less cooperation from your opponent, to the point were there is none at all.
Many systems of IMA's teach forms and that is it. IMO, if that is all they teach (the form) then that is all you will get. If you want to have success in using a IMA in an effective and efficient manner then you have to find a system that trains that way.
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#320469 - 02/07/07 12:02 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:


So yes, either you have it or you don't and one movement is all that is required to settle the issue.




i think doing one movement well, even "the most difficult" can show that you have something, but being able to do a string of moves, or the whole form, shows even more. it's a lot easier to uses and express all the principles one move at a time, but things can start to fall apart when you begin moving continuously.


Edited by ashe_higgs (02/07/07 12:03 PM)
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#320470 - 02/07/07 03:09 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: Fisherman]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
I agree a lot with what fisherman said about needing a system. As much I enjoy learning and trying to get good at forms, I do think they lose a bit of their meaning if that's all you do. And I'll agree that it is often the case with IMA.

With external arts, I've always done forms, and then spent a lot of time doing single movement drills, partner drills, and freestyle type drills/sparring. And I guess it's easy to tell when you progress, and when you haev something.

With internal arts... it seems to get kinda "mystical" for lack of a better word. The thing butterfly palms was talking about having it or not... I my tai chi training pretty traditional, and by comparison with others, I can tell my forms HAVE something others don't. But then again, if I think about in terms of that "for the beauty of the movements" discussion, then I might be doing a lot of that.

So questions are: IMA, like external arts, also care about proper form, angles and such right? With external arts, proper power/balance/speed/structure is kind of my indicator of how well I have things. But when it comes to internal, people always talk aobut that X-factor. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm still not sure if I'm doing it right or not. (I want the traditional tai chi rather than competition tai chi). I guess a good reference for discussion would be the performance videos they have in www.taiji.de. Personally, I think those people are really good at it. But then again, I can't judge the internal value of their performance. So maybe what I think it's good IS really just the modern wushu value of it.

And also, while we do have qigong, push hands and such... I feel we do focus A LOT MORE on forms throughout the course of our tai chi training. Is this pattern typical for IMA? I mean, I've always assumed you need to get your body moving correctly and such before you get to serious push-hand etc. training?
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"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#320471 - 02/07/07 08:29 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: 18lohans]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
i've seen all the stuff from taiji.de and it's all very wushu imo.

to tell you the truth i don't know anyone i would recommend that does just taiji.

chen yu seems to be a pretty good chen player but i've never played with anyone from his lineage.

tim cartmell studied with xie, pei xi and leanred all three of the internal sisters, and he's pretty well known as being bad ass.

steve cotter studied with hong, xu ? and is well known as being a full contact bad ass but he doesn't do xingyi much anymore. mike patterson also studied with hong, but i thought his stuff looked terrible so i wouldn't reccomend him.

yang, jwing ming also puts heavy emphasis on the martial aspect of his taiji, but most of his apps seem to come from either his white crane or long fist.

my own Sifu is a monster, but it's not likely that you're anywhere near enough to train with someone who does I Liq Chuan.

knowing where you are and if you're willing to travel would be a big help in helping you.
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#320472 - 02/08/07 06:04 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: ashe_higgs]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
I'm currently in CA. I'm okay with traveling, but the consideration is that I don't know how much I can learn even from a two or so week long program. And tai chi seems to be something that definitely takes a little longer than the rest.

Hate to sound like a broken record or a retard... but can we disect a bit of what makes taiji.de wushu like? I mean, I understand that for tournaments and such, the time limitations totally kill your internal development. But overall, those taiji.de people have such great structure. They stay at the same level throughout the form, haev good grounding and rotation, good relaxation and fluidity... is the wushu part of it coming from the fact that they probably don't have push hands, qigong and/or the application components of tai chi?

I mean, I was watching various clips from the chen village guys, and even they seem to care quite a deal about proper angles and structures. (So I'm assuming it does matter?)
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"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#320473 - 02/08/07 06:19 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: Fisherman]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Just re-read the thread after I posted my last comment, and I guess something clicked. (Or so I hope)

Quote:

I don't think that it is necessarily what the forms are so much as how they are trained.
If you are training a form to look aesthetically pleasing then I think you will miss the majority of what the form was meant to convey.
If you want to get what the form is trying to teach then you must train the for rather than just doing the form.




So I guess scrap trad vs standardized form and focus on the "training to look aesthetically pleasing" part. Can you guys help me define what that means?

Right now with trad. kung fu vs modern wushu, I can see that. I guess an obvious one is why bother doing a 540 jumping spinning crescent (which looks great!), when 180 has way more power and speed, and is also all you really need.

But again, it's harder to see with tai chi. I'm thinking to the lines of wushu being more like "fluff your hands during transitions it'll looks more cloudy" or "make this move here extra round, because it looks better" vs "it's important to keep the waist loose here because it keeps you grounded" or "sink the qi down to the dantian during the opening move"...

am I on the right track, or is it still something else?
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"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#320474 - 02/09/07 01:14 AM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: 18lohans]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
it's really all about one thing;

recognizing the right energy at the point of contact, and is it spiral force?

here's my Sifu, compare to the videos from taiji.de

21 form

and some explanations of how to manifest the spiral force from moves from our form;

pivot points 1

pivot points 2

spiral force

here's an example of chen yu talking about application which should help you along (although i think chen yu leverages the point too much rather than using more accurate spiraling force)

chen yu

and here's a nice clip of song style pi quan which shows a nice tight spiral

pi quan

many people misunderstand the calssics.

for instance you mentioned no up and down. well there has to be up and down, it just get's smaller the better you get. up and down is absorb and project, one of the qualities of the spiral force (absorb and project, expand and condense, three dimensions, open and close (kua and shoulders) and concave and convex energy) plus being harmonized with the greater flow. that's the internal skill regardless of style.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#320475 - 02/20/07 08:23 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: Fisherman]
tailiugug Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Grettings.

I beleave all that have posted hear clearly put true contemplation into there responses. and with that alone i would like to pay my respect. I would like to share my thoughts/ responses to this subject. First know that there is true knowledge outthere never stop seeking and dont be afraid to travel. next please examine why the standardize forms were created in 1956 the "first" standardized form "24" was astablished for many reasons, one being at competions judging had become quit difficult in that even within the 4 main families (chen,yang,wu & sun) there were and are many variations of every form, to make that worse there are the "frames" small medium and large within each family. aslo some forms may take 2 mins at fast pace or 45 in slow mode. witch would make a competiter have to stop in mid stream to make time requirements. so most standardized forms are based on a 5 min time frame. also note that for respect to the (traditional) forms the "24" strarts of after comencing you go to the left(were tradialaly you would go right) this was to respect The differnce from traditnal and modern. but please note that sence then that has changed take for instance the "42" a highly skille team took the best of each of the 4 families for instance silk realing from chen, grace & strength from yang, flexibilitiy from sun and subtle powers of wu also 5 foot and 8 hand tech from push hands. and since the fighting aspects were not takin out.following comencing you go to the right because although newer then the "traditional forms" they follow all the standards & traditions so it and most other standardized forms can/and in my opion should be considered traditional.

The key to traditional and modern is the traning at whole, in any form you should understand each and ever movement for its fighting and healing benifits. also there is a whole lot more to tai chi then any single form, there has to be a package of training, from qi gong, worm up, standing postures (meditating), push hand, combat applications, weopons, so if you are learning any tai chi form but not its applications in my opionion its not traditional no mater how old the form is.
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pain is joy

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#320476 - 02/20/07 10:10 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: tailiugug]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Quote:

Grettings.

I beleave all that have posted hear clearly put true contemplation into there responses. and with that alone i would like to pay my respect. I would like to share my thoughts/ responses to this subject. First know that there is true knowledge outthere never stop seeking and dont be afraid to travel. next please examine why the standardize forms were created in 1956 the "first" standardized form "24" was astablished for many reasons, one being at competions judging had become quit difficult in that even within the 4 main families (chen,yang,wu & sun) there were and are many variations of every form, to make that worse there are the "frames" small medium and large within each family. aslo some forms may take 2 mins at fast pace or 45 in slow mode. witch would make a competiter have to stop in mid stream to make time requirements. so most standardized forms are based on a 5 min time frame. also note that for respect to the (traditional) forms the "24" strarts of after comencing you go to the left(were tradialaly you would go right) this was to respect The differnce from traditnal and modern. but please note that sence then that has changed take for instance the "42" a highly skille team took the best of each of the 4 families for instance silk realing from chen, grace & strength from yang, flexibilitiy from sun and subtle powers of wu also 5 foot and 8 hand tech from push hands. and since the fighting aspects were not takin out.following comencing you go to the right because although newer then the "traditional forms" they follow all the standards & traditions so it and most other standardized forms can/and in my opion should be considered traditional.

The key to traditional and modern is the traning at whole, in any form you should understand each and ever movement for its fighting and healing benifits. also there is a whole lot more to tai chi then any single form, there has to be a package of training, from qi gong, worm up, standing postures (meditating), push hand, combat applications, weopons, so if you are learning any tai chi form but not its applications in my opionion its not traditional no mater how old the form is.




Thanks for the very insightful reply, tailiugug. You have brought in some good historical facts on the modern standardized form, as well as put more key points into perspective. There are a few complementary comments and questions I have for your post, and I'd really like to hear your thoughts on it.

First of all, I never knew there was a significance in tai chi, as far as which direction you go after the opening of each form. Other styles I've studied do stress that, so I can definitely see principles linked to it. Also, how 24 was the first standardized form, and that since then all of them started following tradition better makes sense. It is an improvement and evolution process afterall (just like the first few Chen forms finally came to be, after many generations of just doing separate techniques). Also, I'll agree that most forms do come into the 5 minute time frame. Afterall, 42 is a revision of 48, for it's length.

48 and 42 both open to the right. What is the significance of that? And are there other differences between standardized forms and traditional ones? (never really seen other traditional forms other than the chen jia gou forms)

Finally, how would you classify people that have only done 48 and 42 as far as what tai chi branch they practice?
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#320477 - 02/21/07 11:52 PM Re: Taiji - Trad vs Modern [Re: 18lohans]
tailiugug Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Gretting

I dont have alot of time tonight so i will get right to the point, first i don't feel that it is fair to classify practicaners on such little evedence as what form they currently have knowledge of. tai chi is a life long study and it makes perfect sence to start a student out on something that can fit easy into there bussy scedual. and get them hooked. if you look closly into the 24 every move is traditional. also it was based on the yang family large frame as was the 48. both are performed in a slow constant pace. but the 42 maintains the yang flavor between the transitions of the 4 families. ( note they also thru in a Bagua tech in close to the end ) with in the 42 the pace verys slightly as well as a few "ha & Hen" exahatations. to put from a teachers point of view. these forms are a great tool and can be used as a gauge as to were tai chi was in the time of their creation. as i said before tai chi is a life adveture over time a practioner may learn many forms and applications from many differnt families or instructors. yet it is the mental energy and contimplations that matter most. example i have a instructor that is 78 and has trained in martial arts sence he was 3.5 years old yet as far as tai chi is conserned in his daily practice only a few key motions are trained and no complete forms. tai chi is where you mind is
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pain is joy

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