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#320085 - 02/09/07 01:45 PM Re: Your UFC 67 Predictions [Re: migo]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

With 30 seconds left and combining shrimping with reversal attempts that's enough time to last to the end of the round.




I will agree with this, I think he could have made it to the end of the round if the ref had allowed it.

Quote:

Cro Cop was doing more damage to Eddie standing up than on the ground.




Damage is damage and Sanchez was on the receiving end of this damage and was dealing nothing back.

Quote:

Eddie handled Cro Cop's standup, he was handling the Ground and Pound too.




No, Sanchez did not handle Cro Cop's stand up. He was continually moving backwards and if he wasn't in a cage he would have been in the stands using the spectators as human shields. No, Sanchez did not handle Cro Cop's ground 'n pound either. He tried to defend but it wasn't enough. Like I said earlier, Cro Cop passed up opportunities to end it early by arm barring him as Sanches offered up his arms continually. Cro Cop decided to stay on top and punch as that is more his game as he is a striker more then anything else. Don't mix up "trying" to defend and actually defending; these are two different things.

Quote:

By the standards that this fight was stopped Lutter vs Silva should have been stopped, Belfort vs Ortiz should have been stopped, Hughes vs Trigg 2 should have been stopped. Silva was in an equally bad position and Lutter had the same armbar opportunity that Cro Cop had (and has in fact demonstrated the ability to armbar someone from that position which Cro Cop hasn't yet), Hughes and Ortiz were both in a much worse situation than Sanchez and they were still allowed to continue fighting and were fine for it.




Again, I have to agree with you here. Those people were in far more compromising positions then Sanchez and taking more punishment and things were allowed to continue. I am only speculating but perhaps because these guys were proven fighters that they allowed more lee-way whereas Sanchez they did not consider a top fighter and wanted to ensure he did not get injured, especially with Cro Cop being who he is. And perhaps maybe they wanted to ensure that Cro Cop did not injure himself throwing all of those punches. For the Tito fight I can understand letting it go a little longer especially since his rematch with Ken Shamrock and calling it too early. But again I agree Sanchez was in no less harm then any of the fighters you mentioned.
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#320086 - 02/09/07 02:33 PM Re: Your UFC 67 Predictions [Re: Dereck]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Dereck nails it exactly. Nothing to add.
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#320087 - 02/10/07 01:49 AM Re: Your UFC 67 Predictions [Re: Dereck]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:


Damage is damage and Sanchez was on the receiving end of this damage and was dealing nothing back.




Nevertheless, the fight was not stopped due to the damage standing, which Eddie wasn't responding to either.

Quote:


No, Sanchez did not handle Cro Cop's stand up. He was continually moving backwards and if he wasn't in a cage he would have been in the stands using the spectators as human shields.




He stayed standing for most of it, that's handling.

Quote:

No, Sanchez did not handle Cro Cop's ground 'n pound either. He tried to defend but it wasn't enough. Like I said earlier, Cro Cop passed up opportunities to end it early by arm barring him as Sanches offered up his arms continually. Cro Cop decided to stay on top and punch as that is more his game as he is a striker more then anything else. Don't mix up "trying" to defend and actually defending; these are two different things.




Cro Cop is rather passive on top, using his fights with Barnett (#2) and Hunt as examples, he usually isn't doing much damage when he gets top position. While he may have been passing up opportunities, that doesn't change that he's not as dangerous to opponents he's mounting as when he is standing.


Quote:

And perhaps maybe they wanted to ensure that Cro Cop did not injure himself throwing all of those punches.




That's a good theory actually. He was a heavy investment and they would want to protect it.

Quote:

For the Tito fight I can understand letting it go a little longer especially since his rematch with Ken Shamrock and calling it too early.




Ortiz/Belfort was well before Tito/Shamrock 2 and 3.

Quote:

But again I agree Sanchez was in no less harm then any of the fighters you mentioned.




Yeah, so basically the criterion people are going on is the stoppage is OK because it was the big bad CroCop he was fighting. I don't like that kind of reffing because I would like to see the fighters decide the outcome, not public opinion.

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#320088 - 02/10/07 12:53 PM Re: Your UFC 67 Predictions [Re: migo]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Riddle me this migo ... if the ref let it go and Sanchez made it to the next round, do you think Sanchez would have a chance winning? You know the answer and the answer is "no". Sanchez wouldn't have lasted more then 2 more minutes in the next round, and most likely if the ref wouldn't have stopped it right then, after a few more good blows he probably would still have stopped it in the first round and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Did you happen to hear Sanchez's comments after the fight when he said, "wow, I've heard he could kick hard I just didn't think it was that hard". I don't think Sanchez is complaining that the fight was stopped and you shouldn't either. Sanchez feels crappy for losing for sure but when Dana walked into Sanchez's locker room after the fights and before the press conference, he congradulated Sanchez and said he'd be back and not to worry as it was Cro Cop he was up against.

Sanchez knew he was defeated. He knew his attempts to defend were unsuccessful and I don't think for once that Cro Cop's punches were not ringing Sanchez's bell as if you watch the video again, they were landing.

With all that is said and done we cannot go back and change it. The ref called the fight and that is the final decision. We all have our perspectives and we are not going to change each other's opinions, so I will leave it at that. I do however enjoy the discussion.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#320089 - 02/10/07 10:58 PM Re: Your UFC 67 Predictions [Re: Dereck]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Riddle me this migo ... if the ref let it go and Sanchez made it to the next round, do you think Sanchez would have a chance winning? You know the answer and the answer is "no". Sanchez wouldn't have lasted more then 2 more minutes in the next round, and most likely if the ref wouldn't have stopped it right then, after a few more good blows he probably would still have stopped it in the first round and we wouldn't be having this conversation.




He would have a puncher's chance. Randleman did it. And they let Loiseau take hellish beating from franklin. "He's going to lose anyway" is a stupid reason to stop the fight early.

Quote:

Did you happen to hear Sanchez's comments after the fight when he said, "wow, I've heard he could kick hard I just didn't think it was that hard". I don't think Sanchez is complaining that the fight was stopped and you shouldn't either. Sanchez feels crappy for losing for sure but when Dana walked into Sanchez's locker room after the fights and before the press conference, he congradulated Sanchez and said he'd be back and not to worry as it was Cro Cop he was up against.




I said I didn't blame Mazagatti for stopping it, I just said it wasn't stopped at a good time.

Quote:

Sanchez knew he was defeated. He knew his attempts to defend were unsuccessful and I don't think for once that Cro Cop's punches were not ringing Sanchez's bell as if you watch the video again, they were landing.




Yes, they were landing quite well 10 seconds before the fight was stopped. Right when the fight was stopped he landed .5/2 punches.

Quote:

With all that is said and done we cannot go back and change it. The ref called the fight and that is the final decision. We all have our perspectives and we are not going to change each other's opinions, so I will leave it at that. I do however enjoy the discussion.




I never have a problem with an early stoppage, it's better than a late one, but if something could be improved for the next time it should be discussed. I didn't see it as a problem until watching the replay, and he has to make the decision under stress, but in hindsight it was definitely not the best time to stop the fight.

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#320090 - 02/11/07 01:01 PM Re: Your UFC 67 Predictions [Re: migo]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Migo, I'm guessing this really doesn't have to do much with Sanchez and Cro Cop, but rather that you wish there was some ... what is the word ... consistancy in stoppages. There are a handful of refs they use and each does it slightly differently though they are all working from the same playbook. They are told to watch for signs from the fighters and make a decision of how well they are defending themselves as when to stop the fight. You could take 10 people and look at something and you may get 10 different answers and that is the problem ... the human factor. Sanchez would have lost, I have no doubt about that. Could he have weathered the storm for the next 30 so seconds, I believe it may have been possible, however we cannot see what the ref may have seen and perhaps a few more blows from Cro Cop may have done even more damage. The fighter is okay and not complaining about an early stoppage so no harm no foul. However I agree there are too many inconsistancies for when stoppages are decided, even from the same refs.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#320091 - 02/11/07 05:54 PM Re: Your UFC 67 Predictions [Re: Dereck]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Yeah, pretty much. The CroCop/Sanchez specific issue here is everyone expected this to be a mismatch, so I think that expectation (Sanchez was paid a flat $30,000 for the fight, no win bonus) might have influenced the stoppage as well. I figure give the guy every reasonable chance to win, which is the same chance anyone else would get in that situation - he certainly deserves it for being willing to step in and fight CroCop.

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