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#319962 - 02/02/07 06:04 PM Hey Underdog!
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I read the post where you locked the "forum is dead" thread, and wanted to address something from that previous post. Having been an LEO who worked hospital duty, had more than my share of psychopaths as prisoners, and more than my share of attempted escapes, I would like to inform that schmuck that everything that happens in a hospital isn't therapy... and more times than I care to remember, I've been called in to help rescue hospital workers in the psych ward that were getting hammered trying to restrain or help a patient who was on one of those rampages you described... i.e., throwing furniture, etc.

Patients there grab weapons, bite, scratch, try to kick the male attendants in the crotch, poke their eyes out... and on and on, so using pressure points to gain control of them sure isn't in any sense abusive... it's survival.

Whoever that guy is, he needs to take a trip to the psych ward and deal with those people on a daily basis for a couple of months before he shoots off his mouth and calls you out about how you do your job. Between his nonsense, and Chen's discussion about "self study" in pressure points, I was strokin' out on my keyboard when you locked the thread. I'm all better now, but I was really steamed when I read that particular group of posts.

Being snowed in isn't always a good thing... even when it gives you time to read the boards...



I'm all better now...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#319963 - 02/02/07 09:29 PM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Thanks. Sometimes I wish we had a health care forum. Either that, or maybe I should post and read LEO more.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#319964 - 02/02/07 09:38 PM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: wristtwister]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hey WW.

There has to be a better way of dealing with these people. Like I said, the old 'Lunatic Asylum' system worked well for many years, until the 'bleeding hearts' of government thought they would introduce some sort of 'care in the community' system. IE, 'its cheaper to fund'. What I mean in other words, lock the buggers away from society, way out in the country, and keep them doped up. If need be do it the same way as is done in a Zoo, with trank guns. Vets do it all the time, why not Doctors and Nurses?

These people are NUTS. Who gives a damn if they are a danger to themselves? Certainly not the majority of the population I'll wager, if one tops themself that's one less to pay for. Why should Underdog have to 'run the gauntlet' every working day?.

As it happens I have a mate who does the same job as Underdog. During a conversation with him, he mentioned that the staff where he works feel unappreciated, demotivated, under resourced, under funded and are not paid enough. I agree with him, so as I said at the time; "Why the hell do you do it"? The answer was, because he wanted to help make things better. He no longer feels that way and is leaving to return to his previous occupation as an accountant at the end of March this year and quite rightly too.

You said, "Patients there grab weapons, bite, scratch, try to kick the male attendants in the crotch, poke their eyes out... and on and on, so using pressure points to gain control of them sure isn't in any sense abusive... it's survival." That depends on where your coming from. If you can't take the heat, do what my mate is doing and get out of the kitchen. You'll get paid a hell of a lot more as well.

Just for the record, I was not being critical of Underdog, but the system under which she has to work. If hospital staff have to use pain compliance and/or immobilization techniques on patients, then there is something radically wrong with the system. Drug em up by all means, but whack em, pin em or lock em, NO. That is not what I pay taxes for which fund the NHS (UK). Hospitals ARE all about treatment and therapy that is the purpose for their existence, that's the reason I pay taxes to fund them along with everyone else (UK).

There is an enormous problem in that patients who are released into community care 'forget' to take their medicines and go off on a rampage and kill someone. I recon they should stand trial like everyone else and when found guilty of murder, (none of this 'diminished responsibility rubbish) string the buggers up. Do it in public as a deterrent to others. Failing that, as I said above, lock them away FOR GOOD .

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#319965 - 02/02/07 09:41 PM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Lorton, VA
Midnightcrawler...

What do you do for a living, please?

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#319966 - 02/03/07 03:55 AM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: Zombie Zero]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi ZZ.

As it says in my profile. I am currently employed by the civil service in a senior managerial position. I was head hunted into this job some eight years ago and have eighteen months to serve before retirement. Previous to that I had a managerial career in commerce and industry, including periods in the ceramics, music and automobile industries.

Why do you ask?

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#319967 - 02/03/07 05:45 AM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: Midnightcrawler]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
This thread doesn't seem to have anything to do with martial arts or with pressure points in particular. I'll grant that mental health has its issues around the world, but that is not the mission of this forum.

Does anyone have anything to say about the humane use of pressure points or martial arts generally in the management of the clients in the mental health system?

The sorry lack of supports for we blokes caught in the middle trying to deliver care under dangerous circumstances is not grist of this mill.

Please stay on topic: Pressure points.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#319968 - 02/03/07 01:11 PM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: underdog]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Yeah, Id like to say, go on and stroke out WT. If thats your bag of tea. never did I say one should attempt or should try to learn PP on there own. As a matter of fact, it was Underdog who said "going and getting a chart to learn the points and hitting them would be DANGEROUS" a word that caught my attention. Thats about as fa as that conversation went. And as far as this one is going.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#319969 - 02/03/07 04:22 PM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: underdog]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:


Does anyone have anything to say about the humane use of pressure points or martial arts generally in the management of the clients in the mental health system?

Please stay on topic: Pressure points.




Ok Underdog, that's a fair enough comment. So I'll stay on the topic and ask this question. 'Is there a humane use of pressure points or martial arts in general which pertain to the treatment of mental patients?' If there is then I am facinated to know about it.

I've been involved in MA's for over 30 years now and I'm damned if I can see a humane use for MA, but I'm always willing to learn something new. Looking at it logically Martial = Military, Art = Techniques, therefore Martial Arts = Techniques of the Military. Or looking at it another way 'how to cause maximum damage with minmum effort and with least risk to oneself. To quote yourself "This is Martial Arts not a Tupperware Party"

How does that equate with the treatment of mental patients? I really would like to know the answer to this, as I don't see where it fits in.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#319970 - 02/03/07 05:33 PM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: Midnightcrawler]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Alright. Let's get away from the damage notion. Get onto the control or self defense side of things. Also, get away from a focus on attacking me. If you met me, or attended one of my classes for health care professionals, you'd see that it isn't worth it. I am not a violent person. Like most folks in health care, I got into this because I want to help people.

I taught a canned program from Crisis Prevention Institute that is pretty wide spread around the world including in the UK. The emphasis is on verbal deescalalation skills which are essential but not the focus of a MA discussion. If you look at their physical techniques, which I DIDN'T come up with and they have nothing to do with me, you can see the pressure points built into them.

For example, without even getting into their advanced physical training, they have a basic technique, from their entry level course, to defend against a bite. It involves taking your unbitten hand and applying rubbing pressure to Gv 26. That is the easiest example I can come up with. Unless you have access to their student manual, it would be hard to explain the others. All of their techniques are designed to be safe nonharmful physical and control techniques to control an individual until he can regain control of himself.

I could also refer you to Dillman who early on, wrote a text and video for LEO on the humane use of pressure points. These are control techniques and include things like the arm bar. This is harsher than what is taught in CPI, but has it's place as a control technique as long as the practitioners aren't breaking joints with it. This particular technique was being taught by Dillman to LEOs.

My signature line is half joke, like everyone elses. My old signature line was "good better best, never let it rest 'til your good is better and your better is best". This probably better shows my nature. I am not a killer. I am a nurse.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#319971 - 02/03/07 06:14 PM Re: Hey Underdog! [Re: Chen Zen]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
No offense meant Chen... just that I've said probably a hundred times that pressure points study requires somebody who has the "fixes" before you try them. I wouldn't recommend anybody take up diffusing bombs on their own either... and in a sense, that's what pressure points are.

Like termites, they cause unseen damage, and plenty of it, so it's not a "self study" operation. If the dangerous nature of it caught your "whoa" button, then, that's good. My whole premise is that if you want to study pressure points, find a teacher that's qualified and go for it. It's just not a "do it yourself" art.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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